I hate something I know nothing about...
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Why do you ask? Is rat poison chemically related to blood thinners?
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
A product called Warfarin - Wikipedia[^] is used for both purposes.
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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I don't know what the traditionalist was asserting, but it is up to those who make assertions to provide evidence for them.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.Whatever assertions were made by the traditionalist, he was equipped with the theory, experiments (some of these studies and experiments take many years to do, and have strict experimental conditions to be fulfilled) and personal observations, leading to the inferences made. Whereas the physics professor knew no such theory, had done no experiments or made observations about this traditional field, but was just giving his opinion; which did not display a scientific mindset.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about?
Because we all like to think we do know something about it. And if we don't like someone's opinion it does not automatically mean that ours is better. I had a fairly long spat with someone a couple of years ago about the UK's decision to leave the EU. He believed one thing and I believed the opposite. In the end he got rather up tight about it and I haven't heard from him since. But I still respect his right to that belief.
I had lots of those arguments/conversations/rows about leaving the EU still have an occasional one just to keep my hand in :-D
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
Some bits of wisdom I have heard from my father or collected during the years: - Something might be old, but it doesn't means it is obsolete or there is no profit of knowing it. - Someone might be old and don't know about a new shiny thing, but it still has way more experience in life and in the work-world than you, do not underestimate it. - Always respect everyone's knowledge, no matter how unrelated to your current task is. You might think a cleaning worker knows nothing, but get a broom and use it for hours everyday without hearing his advices... you wrists will for sure hurt in a couple of hours. - Never disrespect a secretary or someone without "power", that person can still have a lot of "influence" - Be careful which toes you step on today, that foot can kick your ass in the future. - If someone starts complaining about something without any proper arguments, it has nothing to do with that something and way more to do with his feelings. Do not ask about the something nor start a discussion to defend it because there will be no rationality, just ask "how are you?" and show interest in his person.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Some bits of wisdom I have heard from my father or collected during the years: - Something might be old, but it doesn't means it is obsolete or there is no profit of knowing it. - Someone might be old and don't know about a new shiny thing, but it still has way more experience in life and in the work-world than you, do not underestimate it. - Always respect everyone's knowledge, no matter how unrelated to your current task is. You might think a cleaning worker knows nothing, but get a broom and use it for hours everyday without hearing his advices... you wrists will for sure hurt in a couple of hours. - Never disrespect a secretary or someone without "power", that person can still have a lot of "influence" - Be careful which toes you step on today, that foot can kick your ass in the future. - If someone starts complaining about something without any proper arguments, it has nothing to do with that something and way more to do with his feelings. Do not ask about the something nor start a discussion to defend it because there will be no rationality, just ask "how are you?" and show interest in his person.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
These are all wise, but then you get online and someone's like.... eff eff eff eff you... you ask "why"? Then they're like because you use the wrong keyboard. And these are grown "men" who never went outside. It's ok to piss them off, they're not going anywhere in life. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
But, that won't stop commercials from advertising filth like it's yummo.
There's a saying in my house, "They would feed us rat poison if they thought they could get away with it."
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
Amen to that.
Jeremy Falcon
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These are all wise, but then you get online and someone's like.... eff eff eff eff you... you ask "why"? Then they're like because you use the wrong keyboard. And these are grown "men" who never went outside. It's ok to piss them off, they're not going anywhere in life. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
These are all wise, but then you get online and someone's like.... eff eff eff eff you... you ask "why"? Then they're like because you use the wrong keyboard.
Do you mind to elaborate? I don't understand what you mean. Are you talking about me concrete or are you talking about people / situation in general? What do you mean with "the wrong keyboard"?
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
these are grown "men" who never went outside. It's ok to piss them off, they're not going anywhere in life. :laugh:
Teasing people from time to time is ok and can be funny, yeah :-D But IMO, it still should be kept within "ethical" limits and not lead to trolling or worse.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Whatever assertions were made by the traditionalist, he was equipped with the theory, experiments (some of these studies and experiments take many years to do, and have strict experimental conditions to be fulfilled) and personal observations, leading to the inferences made. Whereas the physics professor knew no such theory, had done no experiments or made observations about this traditional field, but was just giving his opinion; which did not display a scientific mindset.
Do you know this for a fact, or are you just swallowing what the traditionalist said because he said it? Just a thought....
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about?
Am reminded of an incident a few decades back, in India, with a renowned Physics professor, and a traditionalist (read ancient Indian tradition). The Physics Professor was giving a public lecture, and routinely mentioned that tradition is all incorrect. In the audience was this long practitioner of tradition, and he got up and said openly that "Your physics is incorrect". The Physics Prof got angry, and here is the conversation that ensued in that lecture hall. Physics Prof: Do you know the history of physics, where so many great physicists have discovered facts. How can you say that Physics is incorrect. You are unscientific. You don't have a scientific bent of mind. You don't understand Physics. You have not studied Physics, and have no right to comment on Physics. Traditionalist: You say that you are a scientist. From what I know, Science has these steps - Theory, Experiment, Observation and Inference. Yes, I agree that Physicists have propounded theories about Mechanics, Heat, Acoustics, Optics, Electricity, etc. and have done experiments, made observations and only then have they made inferences about the theory propounded. And you have studied all of this, and done experiments, made observations, over several years/decades. Traditionalist (continuing): Now, coming to my tradition, what theories have you studied? What experiments have you done, and what are your observations? Without doing any study, experiment or observation, how could you jump to the Inference stage and conclude that "My tradition is incorrect"? You have not studied the scriptures about tradition. Traditionalist (continuing): Did it not occur to you to apply your own scientific principles in the study of tradition also? Having spent none or very little time in the study of Theory of tradition, having not even attempted any Experiment, without any Observation, how can you adversely comment in a public forum about tradition? Did you give yourself the right to do so? You are not a real scientist. If you are merely expressing your opinion, then it is not science, if it has no backup of theory, experiment, or observation, because it is not based on facts. In fact, it is you, the so-called Physics Professor, who is not having a scientific bent of mind. A real scientist should have an open mind about all fields of enquiry, and should have no prejud
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Do you know this for a fact, or are you just swallowing what the traditionalist said because he said it? Just a thought....
I know this for a fact, because I have seen this Physics Prof, and sat through his sessions, where he used to make remarks on things he was having only hearsay kind of knowledge. (He is not alive anymore, so I will not name him).
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The truth usually lies in the balance what has been and what is yet to be. Like, historically we used to bleed people who had a disease. Turns out that's really not a good thing. But, there are things that did work that we lost. For instance, it doesn't take a genius to realize processes foods and profit over substance in our food supply takes its toll. But, that won't stop commercials from advertising filth like it's yummo. It won't stop doctors from rarely considering food intake as part of the diagnosis. Let's just spray some more chemicals with no real studies and insult anyone who disagrees, despite not knowing the difference between a carb and a Cadillac. So, it's a balance. Sometimes getting rid of the old is good; sometimes it's not.
Jeremy Falcon
I do agree with what your saying but had to point out ... Bloodletting is not totally garbage. My family carries a gene for a deadly disease for which phlebotomy aka bloodletting is the prescribed treatment. (Hemochromatosis: a build up of too much iron in the blood and tissues causing serious major organ damage)
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss. Lazarus Long, "Time Enough For Love" by Robert A. Heinlein
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
Isn't the bane of human existence the realization of how clueless we were 5 years ago and blocking out the realization that we are currently clueless compared to our 5 years in the future self? Of course if you are not, that means you won't learn anything substantial in the next 5 years.
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
Look, I don't like JavaScript and I believe it has been used and abused way beyond what it meant to be used for. Since I have worked with both JavaScript and VBScript extensively in my career, for me, I always preferred VBScript since it was a far easier scripting language to use and implement. And when compared to JavaScript, it was also a far superior language implementation. Today, JavaScript is a sheer mess of tools, frameworks, and the like. You see many complaints regarding which tool or framework is best as well as which would be the most reliable for the long term. In addition, the use of massive amounts of JavaScript in web applications make them more vulnerable to attack and less efficient. And there is very little real sense in using so much of this language. But JavaScript's use and expansion into development circles was primarily predicated on the fact that it was free and Open Source, which was all the rage years ago, while VBScript was limited to Windows functionality such as Internet Explorer. Had Microsoft done the intelligent thing and Open Sourced VBScript when it no longer wanted to support this language, allowing the community to expand its capabilities and the browsers it could target, JavaScript never would have become the thing it is today...
Steve Naidamast Sr. Software Engineer Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
It isn't always because we don't know something about what we reject. Sometimes it is just a reasoned analysis after learning, to a degree, how to use something new. JavaScript (JS) intersecting with my own experience is a good example. I came from a background where, over the years, I had written programs in FORTAN, assembly, a proprietary Barber-Colman language for a specific industrial controller, COBOL, QuickBasic, Clipper/xBase, and Visual Basic. I knew C and C++ well enough to read and understand but did not write in it. When web development became more prevalent in the mid 90s and beyond, I looked at JS in the early 2000s (and again in the 2010s and today) since it was integral to websites (and superior to VBScript, its initial competitor). By the mid 90s, I was used to the benefits of object-oriented programming (OOP). As I started to learn JS and see code from its use in the real world, I looked at its productivity potential, its history, and how it is executed, I saw some drawbacks that I didn't care for. JS was not originally intended for the kind of interactive apps we see today. Neither was HTML and CSS. But over the years, necessity and technology improvements have resulted in kludges in JS to keep up. IMHO, the two hardest areas for JS is it running as script, and not compiled to the machine level, and a lack of OOP. When I convert older ASP.NET programs, heavy with JS, to WebAssembly using C# (though any supported OO language would yield the same analysis), I see the productivity gains, the performance gains, the flexibility, fewer (almost no) browser incompatibilities, and less code needed. For someone who has years of experience writing JS, they can be productive to a degree. Opening the frontend logic to OOP languages instead of JS opens the developer pool for organizations creating the websites to more of their programmers, lowering cost and shortening the development portion of the SDLC. JS is not bad, and it got us to a point where more was demanded of websites than JS could deliver and still be JS. Browser manufacturers adding the WebAssembly engine, based on meeting open source, standardized requirements, is where web app development is more economically delivered and maintained, performance is better, and OOP is integral. Just as the Single Page Application (SPA) was a revolution in bringing one of desktop apps' stateful advantages to web apps stateless limitations, WebAssembly is a revolution in web apps that is needed, however much it is resisted by the JS communit
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
I hate JavaScript and I know everything about it - I've been "programming" in it since it first emerged, and it's filth. Granted, the DOM is filth, too, so you sort of need filth to deal with it, but JavaScript is inconsistent between browsers, untyped, messy, unstructured and - well - it's Filth. So's COBOL.
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I did something called growing up
Yet in our most recent discussion you didn't hesitate to assume I know nothing about JavaScript just because I disagree with you (and now you're assuming you know more than pretty much the entirety of CP). I've worked with JavaScript for over ten years (mostly front-end, mind you), I did some non-trivial work in it, and I can simply say it's a horrible language. I'm not saying it can't do stuff, I'm saying it has way too many WTFs and doing stuff is often hard or weird. The way it handles NaN (which you can easily get, for example by doing 1 - {}, yet 1 + {} yields a string), how "this" is handled is just pure madness, many WTFs with basic operators (like the + and - of a number and object, now try + and - on a string and number), missing basic functionality (although that's getting better), the lack of an integer type or a "safe" decimal type, the whole ecosystem which forces you to install 100s of dependencies of which some have a single line of code (padLeft, anyone?), and the list goes on. It wasn't to long ago where the only sure way to check if an object is an array was
Object.prototype.toString.call(obj) === "[object Array]"and for NaNobj !== objdespite theisNaNandisArrayfunctions! You seem to love JavaScript for some reason, the rest of the world hates it. But of course the rest of the world must be wrong. You claim people lack the maturity to not be overly emotional about crap, yet you seem overly emotional about JavaScript. Let's be mature about it and agree to disagree.Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
I sometimes asked in job interviews, "What are your favorite and least favorite programming languages?" The followup question was "What is your favorite feature in your least favorite language, and your least favorite feature in your favorite language?" The purpose of these two questions was to see if the candidate actually thought about the tools they use, or were they just a fanboy. If a candidate went to a decent university CS program, they were exposed to some very different languages, so they would have a basis for this opinion. If they were self-taught, they might only know one programming language. I would take it easy on such a candidate if they admitted their limits, but not so much if they were a fanboy.
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I sometimes asked in job interviews, "What are your favorite and least favorite programming languages?" The followup question was "What is your favorite feature in your least favorite language, and your least favorite feature in your favorite language?" The purpose of these two questions was to see if the candidate actually thought about the tools they use, or were they just a fanboy. If a candidate went to a decent university CS program, they were exposed to some very different languages, so they would have a basis for this opinion. If they were self-taught, they might only know one programming language. I would take it easy on such a candidate if they admitted their limits, but not so much if they were a fanboy.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Yeah, and well... we know which tends to exist the most. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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I agree with and love your high-level point .. but on the specific example of JavaScript, you're wrong -- it's terrible. :]
Nope. You're welcome to your incorrect opinion though, but I instantly no longer view this conversation as senior level given that lackluster rationale that's clearly based on blah.
Jeremy Falcon
