Commercial Work?
-
leppie wrote: I just saw one the other day. You "bid" on projects. Yeah, this is just selling yourself to do work for others to reap the profit. Most of them have people out there (somewhere in the world) that will work for $5 per hour or some slave labor wage. The main point is to allow people to group together to design, develop and market an application for profit. Just a few of thoughts rambling around my head -- Group people by skill (developer, sales, management, graphics, etc.). Each person would have a searchable profile that contained what work they desired and a list of qualifications. A person has an idea for a product. They can search and find people with the skills they believe will be required and invite them to become a partner in the project. One the other side of the coin, there would be a list of projects containing: * Public brief of idea (usually minor not to give much away) * Private detailed specs for the project * Members of the project * Positions still available * Project locked/unlocked to submissions to join If a person finds a project that they believe can utilize their skills, they could submit a request to join the project unless locked and no other submissions allowed. Legal still will have to be involved such as NDAs to allow a free flow of ideas. I picture the person who has the original idea would have a double vote along with a double share of the profits while everyone else would only have a single vote/share. The share would be weighted based their actual contribution to the project. Everyone is paid the same for their work regardless of duty. The members would vote on the acceptable percentage members contribute to the project. This may be done on a weekly or monthly basis to review what people have contributed and give them a point value of what work was involved in their contribution. Your share in the vote and profits would be based on these points. With the point system, you would forever earn from part of the profits no matter how much you contributed. Those who stay with the project and put forth the work will all share nicely in its profits. You decide to drop out and no longer per part, you will still earn from your contributions! Voting would be carried out for the entire operations of the product. The members would vote not only on the development and contributions but also in dropping a member if it should be required, bringing more members in, how the marketing will be handled, vir
Rocky Moore wrote: double vote along with a double share of the profits Actually, this might be better as the original idea holder would have a full share (the same points as the highest point member) and vote just for the idea and bringing the project to the table. The person would receive another share (points) based on the work they contribute to the project. This would insure the the person with the idea would receive reward for having the idea and allowing others to share! Rocky Moore <><
-
Does anyone know of a site that allows people to form groups for commercial products to develop? That is, a site that will list commercial projects that people have went in together to develop and split the profits of their labor base on the percentage of work people have put in? Kind of like a Source Forge for commerical work? Rocky Moore <><
This sounds good to me as well. There is one thing that you should be aware of. In most software corporations R&D (us programmers) is around one fourth of the labour costs. The rest goes towards things like marketing, administration, accounting, website management etc. Plus there is overhead, cost of infrastructure etc. While the R&D sector is the engine of the corporation, the rest of it could be termed the transmission, chassis, and someone has to steer. Probably these "extra" people are paid more than is necessary, but it can still add up. I am not saying this would not work - I am saying there are two choices, either you time share the accounting, website design etc, amoung a bunch of programmers, or you hire people to do it. If one of these services does that they will most likely take a chunk out of the cost. I have tried to use eLance.com with very little success - you are competing against East European and Asian programmers, who work for much less. Your advantage is that you are present in a developed nation - so it would have to be on-site work. Anyway if you figure all that out - I am in.
-
How about this? www.asynchrony.com[^] Weiye, Chen When pursuing your dreams, don't forget to enjoy your life...
-
This sounds good to me as well. There is one thing that you should be aware of. In most software corporations R&D (us programmers) is around one fourth of the labour costs. The rest goes towards things like marketing, administration, accounting, website management etc. Plus there is overhead, cost of infrastructure etc. While the R&D sector is the engine of the corporation, the rest of it could be termed the transmission, chassis, and someone has to steer. Probably these "extra" people are paid more than is necessary, but it can still add up. I am not saying this would not work - I am saying there are two choices, either you time share the accounting, website design etc, amoung a bunch of programmers, or you hire people to do it. If one of these services does that they will most likely take a chunk out of the cost. I have tried to use eLance.com with very little success - you are competing against East European and Asian programmers, who work for much less. Your advantage is that you are present in a developed nation - so it would have to be on-site work. Anyway if you figure all that out - I am in.
JWood wrote: I am not saying this would not work - I am saying there are two choices, either you time share the accounting, website design etc, amoung a bunch of programmers, or you hire people to do it. If one of these services does that they will most likely take a chunk out of the cost. I am including that into the list of members to be added to a project. Marketing people, accounting, etc., would be included as members just like programmers and all would earn their share based on what they contribute. There may be people that come in as members by their financial investment in project. The site itself though that hosted all these probjects may also offer marketing services to projects of a share also. The points that their share would be awarded would be based on the value to which the members of that project agreed. Possibly some members will fill multiple shoes for greater points. It would be up to the members though. JWood wrote: I have tried to use eLance.com with very little success - you are competing against East European and Asian programmers, who work for much less. Your advantage is that you are present in a developed nation - so it would have to be on-site work Yeah, that is a problem a lot lately with all the offshoring of jobs in the U.S., but actually this idea would work well for all involved since it would not really matter where you live as to what you earn. Imagine someone in India earning $150K-$200 on a project. It would be fair game for everyone. Of course, it would be up the members of a project as to who would be allowed to join and if they want only people from a specific country or even area for that matter, they will be able to decide. In your post about the other site that is somewhat like this but owns the source when the project is over, that is exactly the problem. The members of the project should own the source code based on their points and they could vote to do whatever they like with the project. I sure wish I could find a site like that, I would join up ;) Rocky Moore <><
-
JWood wrote: I am not saying this would not work - I am saying there are two choices, either you time share the accounting, website design etc, amoung a bunch of programmers, or you hire people to do it. If one of these services does that they will most likely take a chunk out of the cost. I am including that into the list of members to be added to a project. Marketing people, accounting, etc., would be included as members just like programmers and all would earn their share based on what they contribute. There may be people that come in as members by their financial investment in project. The site itself though that hosted all these probjects may also offer marketing services to projects of a share also. The points that their share would be awarded would be based on the value to which the members of that project agreed. Possibly some members will fill multiple shoes for greater points. It would be up to the members though. JWood wrote: I have tried to use eLance.com with very little success - you are competing against East European and Asian programmers, who work for much less. Your advantage is that you are present in a developed nation - so it would have to be on-site work Yeah, that is a problem a lot lately with all the offshoring of jobs in the U.S., but actually this idea would work well for all involved since it would not really matter where you live as to what you earn. Imagine someone in India earning $150K-$200 on a project. It would be fair game for everyone. Of course, it would be up the members of a project as to who would be allowed to join and if they want only people from a specific country or even area for that matter, they will be able to decide. In your post about the other site that is somewhat like this but owns the source when the project is over, that is exactly the problem. The members of the project should own the source code based on their points and they could vote to do whatever they like with the project. I sure wish I could find a site like that, I would join up ;) Rocky Moore <><
-
Does anyone know of a site that allows people to form groups for commercial products to develop? That is, a site that will list commercial projects that people have went in together to develop and split the profits of their labor base on the percentage of work people have put in? Kind of like a Source Forge for commerical work? Rocky Moore <><
I've thought about that in the past, too. I worried about the system for distributing profits, though. It seems likely that someone is going to question the fairness of money distribution. Is it based on who wrote the most lines of code (a questionable method for determining "effort"). If so, what about the person who did the high level design, which doesn't add to "lines of code". What's the value of a bug fix (which might add little or no lines of code)? What's the value of ideas? (For example, if someone comes up with an idea that saves weeks of work or doubles the number of sales?) I'm a little scared of those kinds of questions because it seems that people could get into a fight pretty easily when money is involved. If all members receive equal payout then people who did more work might resent the people who aren't pulling their own weight - or worse: they joined the project but then became apathetic and did nothing. One possibility is that members could vote for other members. Example: John did a lot of work, I give him 3 points. Bill did nothing, he gets 0 points. That can be abused, too (give your votes to me and I'll give my votes to you). In the end, I'm not quite sure how to resolve these problems. With conventional companies, you can at least rely on people being forced to be at work for 40 hours a week, and their pay doesn't affect how much you get paid (so they aren't stealing money from me by taking more profits than they are worth). That doesn't mean these problems are unresolvable. It's just hard to find good solutions. ------------------------------------------ The ousted but stubbornly non-dead leader reportedly released an audiotape this weekend, ending by calling on Iraqis to, quote, "resist the occupation in any way you can, from writing on walls, to boycotting, to demonstrating and taking up arms." adding, "you know, pretty much anything I used to kill you for." - The Daily Show
-
I've thought about that in the past, too. I worried about the system for distributing profits, though. It seems likely that someone is going to question the fairness of money distribution. Is it based on who wrote the most lines of code (a questionable method for determining "effort"). If so, what about the person who did the high level design, which doesn't add to "lines of code". What's the value of a bug fix (which might add little or no lines of code)? What's the value of ideas? (For example, if someone comes up with an idea that saves weeks of work or doubles the number of sales?) I'm a little scared of those kinds of questions because it seems that people could get into a fight pretty easily when money is involved. If all members receive equal payout then people who did more work might resent the people who aren't pulling their own weight - or worse: they joined the project but then became apathetic and did nothing. One possibility is that members could vote for other members. Example: John did a lot of work, I give him 3 points. Bill did nothing, he gets 0 points. That can be abused, too (give your votes to me and I'll give my votes to you). In the end, I'm not quite sure how to resolve these problems. With conventional companies, you can at least rely on people being forced to be at work for 40 hours a week, and their pay doesn't affect how much you get paid (so they aren't stealing money from me by taking more profits than they are worth). That doesn't mean these problems are unresolvable. It's just hard to find good solutions. ------------------------------------------ The ousted but stubbornly non-dead leader reportedly released an audiotape this weekend, ending by calling on Iraqis to, quote, "resist the occupation in any way you can, from writing on walls, to boycotting, to demonstrating and taking up arms." adding, "you know, pretty much anything I used to kill you for." - The Daily Show
Maybe you could start it off simple - maybe just a referal system for software consultants. Say a software consultant gets a contracct at a place doing some govenernment work and it turns out to be a lot more work than he bargained for, or some things are outside of his specialization. He can let his manager know that he can tap into this resource for offloading some specialized tasks to a software co-operative that he is part of. It could then be tacked onto his invoice.
-
On one level it's a great idea. But imagine the politicking, mediation and litigation that would be required to divy up the cash (on those projects that actually made any). I doubt there would be any left over for the actual contributors.:sigh::doh:
Joey Bloggs wrote: On one level it's a great idea. But imagine the politicking, mediation and litigation that would be required to divy up the cash (on those projects that actually made any). I doubt there would be any left over for the actual contributors. I was thinking the same thing. I think on a project as describe it would behoove all involved to have spelled out in writing--and a signed an aknowledgement of that agreement--who is entitled to what. Otherwise, if fortune is in their favor, each coder will realize that it was their work that was most valuable to the project and thus it is he/she that deserve the biggest reward. There is no honor amongst thieves, stock holders, and business partners...
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little past them into the impossible.--Arthur C. Clark
-
Does anyone know of a site that allows people to form groups for commercial products to develop? That is, a site that will list commercial projects that people have went in together to develop and split the profits of their labor base on the percentage of work people have put in? Kind of like a Source Forge for commerical work? Rocky Moore <><
www.asynchrony.com If you compare the "finished projects" to "open projects" ratio, you get a fair idea how good it is. I like the idea as such, but having a cachy project title isnÄt the best way to gather a team.
"Dor säggsische Dialeggt eechnet sich wie keeen onderor für den Ausdrugg zäärdlischor Gefiehle."
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen -
Very, Very close! But I worry about things like "Lion's share" when it comes to getting paid and the idea that the company would be handling the end product. Wouldn't it be good to have a site that simply allows groups to form and then the groups have full and complete control? They can bring in people for marketing, investments, management, not just development. Have you worked in any of the groups at Asynchrony? Rocky Moore <><
Rocky Moore wrote: Have you worked in any of the groups at Asynchrony? Nope. Weiye, Chen When pursuing your dreams, don't forget to enjoy your life...
-
Well you could start it up yourself - although it sounds like a lot of work. I actually wrote something up on this called a "software co-operative" idea. I could send it to you if you are interested.
JWood wrote: I could send it to you if you are interested. Sure, I would welcome it! A business model such as this, has been lurking in my mind for years as it problably has for thousands of others. If we (developers) could actually rise up and build something that would allow everyone to receive from their hard work, I think some big companies would have to get serious with their employees and might just make things better for all developers. Rocky Moore <><
-
I've thought about that in the past, too. I worried about the system for distributing profits, though. It seems likely that someone is going to question the fairness of money distribution. Is it based on who wrote the most lines of code (a questionable method for determining "effort"). If so, what about the person who did the high level design, which doesn't add to "lines of code". What's the value of a bug fix (which might add little or no lines of code)? What's the value of ideas? (For example, if someone comes up with an idea that saves weeks of work or doubles the number of sales?) I'm a little scared of those kinds of questions because it seems that people could get into a fight pretty easily when money is involved. If all members receive equal payout then people who did more work might resent the people who aren't pulling their own weight - or worse: they joined the project but then became apathetic and did nothing. One possibility is that members could vote for other members. Example: John did a lot of work, I give him 3 points. Bill did nothing, he gets 0 points. That can be abused, too (give your votes to me and I'll give my votes to you). In the end, I'm not quite sure how to resolve these problems. With conventional companies, you can at least rely on people being forced to be at work for 40 hours a week, and their pay doesn't affect how much you get paid (so they aren't stealing money from me by taking more profits than they are worth). That doesn't mean these problems are unresolvable. It's just hard to find good solutions. ------------------------------------------ The ousted but stubbornly non-dead leader reportedly released an audiotape this weekend, ending by calling on Iraqis to, quote, "resist the occupation in any way you can, from writing on walls, to boycotting, to demonstrating and taking up arms." adding, "you know, pretty much anything I used to kill you for." - The Daily Show
Brit wrote: Is it based on who wrote the most lines of code (a questionable method for determining "effort"). Exactly the point! It would be recommended for people to base their assessments on "effort" involved that week (or whatever cycle they agree on) and not by value. A person designing a web page for a request for information me not be considered as great of "value" as the person who is architecting a solution to a complex problem, but they should earn equally to be fair. Brit wrote: Example: John did a lot of work, I give him 3 points. Bill did nothing, he gets 0 points. That can be abused, too (give your votes to me and I'll give my votes to you). Yes, this could be a problem, but I think it would be less of a problem if the voting was public and people could question the validity of the votes. There would be fighting as is in anything when authority is shared. That would be a given. After a few projects though, I think that that are out-of-line with everyone would be clearly shown from their past work and voting history. Might have the ability to add comments to a person's profile such as eBay does except to allow for explanations instead of one-sided comments. Remember, this is a shared authority, so if you suspect a person of doing wrong you simply vote them off the island ;) There rules here would not be dictated by the site but by the project. People would be free to set whatever agreements they like. If they want the original idea holder to have 90% of all the project that is their business. People could use share points as cash on the system to pay people for work. You do this and we will assign you 50 share points, which if the product sold well, might bring you a few thousand for your work. Personally, I would only work for one that allowed even divisions based on your contributions. I guess the primary idea here, is a site to provide an environment to allow people to come together and collaborate on work where their payment is pure speculation on future revenue. A place where people can post their abilities, ideas and receive solicitations of work. The site itself would handle the work to track share points, member voting and other collaboration tools. The main point for developers is that they will receive payment for their work for as long as that work is used instead of one time fees or salaries. The projects would have to spell out quite clearly though what type of sharing model they are using and wha
-
Maybe you could start it off simple - maybe just a referal system for software consultants. Say a software consultant gets a contracct at a place doing some govenernment work and it turns out to be a lot more work than he bargained for, or some things are outside of his specialization. He can let his manager know that he can tap into this resource for offloading some specialized tasks to a software co-operative that he is part of. It could then be tacked onto his invoice.
JWood wrote: It could then be tacked onto his invoice. Yeah, but then you are back to just another consulting service, hiring out the cheapest labor for outsourced tasks, right? The primary focus I see, it a shared profits model were you earn for your work as long as your work is used. I like the idea of starting out simple though. A site could go a long way by just providing a basic networking service to bring ideas and the people who can bring those ideas to fruition with an understanding that all projects will be based on shared profits. Rocky Moore <><
-
www.asynchrony.com If you compare the "finished projects" to "open projects" ratio, you get a fair idea how good it is. I like the idea as such, but having a cachy project title isnÄt the best way to gather a team.
"Dor säggsische Dialeggt eechnet sich wie keeen onderor für den Ausdrugg zäärdlischor Gefiehle."
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: I like the idea as such, but having a cachy project title isn't the best way to gather a team. I totally agree. That is why I would suggest a method of being able to search a list of abilites and try to find people who you believe would work well on the project and be able to solicit their membership. Maybe there is a small part that no one on your team know well enough to implement, but someone else out there has the perfect skills. You simply solicit their services for that feature and give them (x) amount of share points for their work. This would allow them to make money in the future on the project if it turns a profit. One of the important factors is that as a share holder you have a vote (although it may be small) and own a part of the product. Rocky Moore <><
-
Does anyone know of a site that allows people to form groups for commercial products to develop? That is, a site that will list commercial projects that people have went in together to develop and split the profits of their labor base on the percentage of work people have put in? Kind of like a Source Forge for commerical work? Rocky Moore <><
There is also the software contractors guild: http://www.scguild.com/
-
There is also the software contractors guild: http://www.scguild.com/
JWood wrote: There is also the software contractors guild: Isn't that just for contracting for a "Fee", not for profit sharing? Rocky Moore <><