Programmers and Atheists
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The only faith I have is in windage, sight alignment, and a range of about 300 yards. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
I used to feel that way too, John. But about ten years ago I found myself standing over a hospital bed where my three year old son lay stuck full of needles and tubes, and a doctor was in my face explaining the fatalty rates of some desease that I didn't even know existed until that moment. Anyone who could put their faith in windage at a moment like that is a better man than me. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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Was this based on a scientific study ? A random sample or is it just the drivel coming out of an unorganised mind ? Please will you define the following:- What is a good programmer , what is a great programmer , what do you mean by the concept of aetheist ? How many programmers you sampled in order to arrive at this statement , what controls did you have in place to be sure that the sample was random. I suspect that you , like myself, are an aetheist but I think you are over generalising just a tad. If you mean that to be an effective programmer , it useful to have an open mind , then I would agree , but I see no reason why aetheists should have a monopoly on that . In an infinite universe , anything is possible.
it useful to have an open mind , then I would agree , but I see no reason why aetheists should have a monopoly on that "There is no God, You are crazy to believe in God" - what is so open minded about that:confused: --- Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused :laugh:
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Then what the hell are Agnostics? Lesbians? lol Actually I thought about it logically and I still don't get it. Unless you mean they are Atheists simply so that they are "allowed" to be gay? If so then you have no respect and have not learnt from whatever religion you hold dear to your heart. Thinking that you are insulting someone by calling them gay is a really, really pathetic thing to do. Most cases it is a case of insecurity or fear that others will find out that you are gay. Be happy with yourself and your sexual preference, God made you that way :-D regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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i would tone that down to: "most good programmers are skeptics" the point is that you rarely take what's given on face value, you want to know and understand "why" things happen the way they do. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
I feel exactly this way :) That's why I like programming, it lets me be like a scientist always doing experiments to understand how things go. Paolo ------ "airplane is cool, but space shuttle is even better" (J. Kaczorowski)
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I've generally stayed out of these religious threads until now. I have read all of them and have found them quite interesting. My comments/question aren't necesarily specific to this thread topic (or this branch of it) but maybe some of the pseudo-religious scholars would like to comment. Up to when I was 9 years old, my mother made sure I attended Catholic church and sunday school every week. One evening our neighbors house caught fire. My best friend and his 2 year old sister burned to death. Their screams haunted me for many years. A couple weeks later, I asked my mother why God allowed them to suffer so much in their deaths. She had no good answer, but suggested I talk to our priest. He also had no good answer. A few months later, after my sister's confirmation I had a chance to ask a bishop the same question. Once again, no good answer. I've been an atheist ever since. Why would a good god allow two innocent children to suffer in such a horrible death? And don't patronize me with "God has a purpose or God works in mysterious ways", I'm not buying it.:confused: Mike Mullikin "Real programmers don't document their code. It was hard to write - it should be hard to read!"
Hi Mike, I have never come close to experiencing such a tragedy as you describe, I can't even come close to really understanding how you feel. Why God allows suffering in the world is a difficult question that many people have, you are not alone. I will try to present the Christian answer to this question, but please understand that I do not have your experience which makes this easier to say than actually comprehend. The Christian answer to this goes back to the beginning when Adam and Eve first sinned. Before they ate from the forbidden fruit, there was no sin and therefore no pain or suffering. It was not possible for any man to die or be hurt. Once man rebelled against God, sin entered the picture allowing suffering and death. It was man who rebelled against God and therefore allowed suffering and death into the world. Unfortunately all of man is in the same situation due to the actions of our ancestors (Adam and Eve) - we are all born into sin. This means we will all eventually die and some of us will experience extrordinary pain and suffering. This was not God's plan, it was mans rebellion that caused this. Although God has the power to intervene and prevent pain and suffering, it is done at his discretion. This supernatural intervention is not common however, man in general lives its entire life in pain and suffering. The solution to this pain and suffering is the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. God never intended for your best friend, his sister or you to experience this tragedy. He could have prevented it, but he didn't because free will results in both good and bad things and we (Adam and Eve) rebelled allowing the bad things to enter our life. It is easier to blame he who could have prevented the tragedy (God) than man, but it really is man who is to blame. Chris Hafey
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
Yes but consider this in retrospect. In another 500 years we will be the "old timers". Will all of our theories be disproved as Newtons was by Einstien ( although 99% of Netowns theory was correct and Uncle Alberts has to be considered as a type of special case in its rawest form ). Until we can take the Big Bang back to zero there is no physical law that we know of that precludes a God. It is a viable theory of creation. Just as humans cannot invision space time or quarks or superstrings or even a black hole perhaps we cannot invision God. We have to "see" these things in abstract or by their effects on simpiler objects around them or as mathamatical models. I agree that religion was a necessary invention that led to civilization but perhaps the underlying concept, the existance of something we call a God, has its base in truth. You are making the same mistake that so many others thru history has done: Ignoring or impunging a fact that cannot be proven. You should investigate from the viewpoint that a if possibility exists it ha to be disproven to be eliminated. Even your examples, the earth being flat, the earth being the center of the universe, are based on religious beliefs, not science. The Greeks and the Romans and the Egyptians had proven that this was not so. Certain religions just choose to ignore the proofs. Religion does not equate God. If you are an agnostic or and aethist then that is your religion. God exists because we can't prove he doesn't Richard f you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
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i would tone that down to: "most good programmers are skeptics" the point is that you rarely take what's given on face value, you want to know and understand "why" things happen the way they do. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
"most good programmers are skeptics" Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
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I almost didn't answer this, because no mere human can ever hope to completely understand God. Some things the Bible says on the subject: Anyone who has ever been disobedient in any way (other than disobeying a lower authority in order to obey a higher authority), is guilty of sin. Hence, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Also, the Bible tells us that the rightful payment for sin is death. (Romans 6:23) So, truthfully the question should be, "Why does God let anyone live at all?". The answer to that is found in 2 Peter 3:9, where it says that God is longsuffering and desires that people would repent of their sin and choose the life He offers. John 3:16 tells us that God loves everyone, so He did something to pay for our sin. So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. John
So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. Apparently he gives some more time to repent their sins than others. Mike's best friend's sister got two years. So God is good and loving - but not very fair. Steve T. Philosophy: Questions that may never be answered. Religion: Answers that may never be questioned.
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. Really? Why not? Every one, religious or not, knows the Bible says that God created Heavon and Earth. What the Bible does NOT say is how. It doesn't say "God created the universe, and it was made of cheese". It doesn't say anything, that I'm aware of, of the means that He took at all to create the universe. So it's certainly a possiblity that God created quarks and atoms. Think about how complex life is. It takes a DNA strand (of which there are 46 [I believe] per cell in the human body) that is 2 billion pieces in length to describe a person. That's 92 billion pieces of DNA programming that have to fit in to each and every one of our cells, so of course they'd have to be small, and of course that means that, from a religious stand point, God would HAVE to had made the quark and atom. People always see religion and science as being opposing forces. In reality, they can be very mutual. It's another one of those "point of view" things. :) Jamie Nordmeyer Portland, Oregon, USA
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Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are religious. Part of the desire to understand the way the universe ticks is to get closer to God and understand the divine beauty He created. Education doesn't imply atheism - it implies a deeper understanding and a more solid basis for ones beliefs (either way). It's like all these discussions we've had over the last couple of days: evolution, quantum mechanics and relativity, plate techtonics etc etc. The more you see and the more you understand the more you find yourself hitting a point (as Paul will attest) where you go 'That's so cool. Almost too cool...' cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
"Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are religious." True "Some of the most morons in this world are religious." True "Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are atheists." True "Some of the most morons in this world are atheists." True God bless atheists!
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
I believe that most programmers are religious people. There is Linux religion, STL religion, Delphi religion, Oracle religion, C++ religion, Java religion, GC religion, and more recently, XML religion Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
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So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. Apparently he gives some more time to repent their sins than others. Mike's best friend's sister got two years. So God is good and loving - but not very fair. Steve T. Philosophy: Questions that may never be answered. Religion: Answers that may never be questioned.
I guess I'd have to agree on one level, especially since if "fair" meant "always just and never forgiving", none of us would be here to have this conversation in the first place. However, most poeple think of "fair" as something along the lines of "treated the same" or "treated equally". In that sense, God is both fair and "unfair". The Bible says that, He sends rain on the just and the unjust in Matthew 5:45. By that one act alone he is being fair by treating people the same, but unfair by also blessing the people that we would think don't deserve it. Actually, I haven't run across any statement where God claims to be fair, in fact I see a few places in the Bible where it is stated rather plainly the opposite way. (Romans 9:14-16 is one good spot.) Anyway, there are a lot more important things than our human concept of fairness. And goodness obviously doesn't mean fairness or you would never call anyone good since no human can treat everyone else the same (well maybe a 100% hermit who never had contact with anyone). John
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"most good programmers are skeptics" Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. So, you're skeptical about skepticism?:) Personally, I don't believe any of this. I don't even believe in the existance of this thread until somebody shows me strong evidence to to contrary. :) Craig Dodge A catchy signature should appear here.
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Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. So, you're skeptical about skepticism?:) Personally, I don't believe any of this. I don't even believe in the existance of this thread until somebody shows me strong evidence to to contrary. :) Craig Dodge A catchy signature should appear here.
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I actually don't think any of you really exist. CodeProject is just an elaborate joke Hassan is playing on me. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Funny, I thought Hassan was an elaborate joke that Code Project is playing on me ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
All great programmers are athesists (sic) This is not true. On the other hand all great programmers hate Vegemite and love 80's hard rock. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
I don't normally bother engaging in serious discussion with trollers, but the Bible indictaes the world is round, way before we realised it. You're saying quarks are what ? Too complex to be created, they obviously came into being spontaneously ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. I will bet that even within our lifetimes, filled with wonderous modern day scientists, we will see the overthrow of a lot of commonly held scientific thinking. Never ever believe that we are right and are infallable as opposed to the scientists of old. There is much we do not know and are still to discover, a lot of which will discount our beliefs, scientific or religious. In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
I am always amazed when people seem to presume that while every other generation felt they understood the world through finally coming to a scientific observation whereby everything has been explained and were wrong, we are lucky enough to be right. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I actually don't think any of you really exist. CodeProject is just an elaborate joke Hassan is playing on me. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
There is no CodeProject.