Programmers and Atheists
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
Yes but consider this in retrospect. In another 500 years we will be the "old timers". Will all of our theories be disproved as Newtons was by Einstien ( although 99% of Netowns theory was correct and Uncle Alberts has to be considered as a type of special case in its rawest form ). Until we can take the Big Bang back to zero there is no physical law that we know of that precludes a God. It is a viable theory of creation. Just as humans cannot invision space time or quarks or superstrings or even a black hole perhaps we cannot invision God. We have to "see" these things in abstract or by their effects on simpiler objects around them or as mathamatical models. I agree that religion was a necessary invention that led to civilization but perhaps the underlying concept, the existance of something we call a God, has its base in truth. You are making the same mistake that so many others thru history has done: Ignoring or impunging a fact that cannot be proven. You should investigate from the viewpoint that a if possibility exists it ha to be disproven to be eliminated. Even your examples, the earth being flat, the earth being the center of the universe, are based on religious beliefs, not science. The Greeks and the Romans and the Egyptians had proven that this was not so. Certain religions just choose to ignore the proofs. Religion does not equate God. If you are an agnostic or and aethist then that is your religion. God exists because we can't prove he doesn't Richard f you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
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i would tone that down to: "most good programmers are skeptics" the point is that you rarely take what's given on face value, you want to know and understand "why" things happen the way they do. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
"most good programmers are skeptics" Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
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I almost didn't answer this, because no mere human can ever hope to completely understand God. Some things the Bible says on the subject: Anyone who has ever been disobedient in any way (other than disobeying a lower authority in order to obey a higher authority), is guilty of sin. Hence, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Also, the Bible tells us that the rightful payment for sin is death. (Romans 6:23) So, truthfully the question should be, "Why does God let anyone live at all?". The answer to that is found in 2 Peter 3:9, where it says that God is longsuffering and desires that people would repent of their sin and choose the life He offers. John 3:16 tells us that God loves everyone, so He did something to pay for our sin. So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. John
So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. Apparently he gives some more time to repent their sins than others. Mike's best friend's sister got two years. So God is good and loving - but not very fair. Steve T. Philosophy: Questions that may never be answered. Religion: Answers that may never be questioned.
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. Really? Why not? Every one, religious or not, knows the Bible says that God created Heavon and Earth. What the Bible does NOT say is how. It doesn't say "God created the universe, and it was made of cheese". It doesn't say anything, that I'm aware of, of the means that He took at all to create the universe. So it's certainly a possiblity that God created quarks and atoms. Think about how complex life is. It takes a DNA strand (of which there are 46 [I believe] per cell in the human body) that is 2 billion pieces in length to describe a person. That's 92 billion pieces of DNA programming that have to fit in to each and every one of our cells, so of course they'd have to be small, and of course that means that, from a religious stand point, God would HAVE to had made the quark and atom. People always see religion and science as being opposing forces. In reality, they can be very mutual. It's another one of those "point of view" things. :) Jamie Nordmeyer Portland, Oregon, USA
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Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are religious. Part of the desire to understand the way the universe ticks is to get closer to God and understand the divine beauty He created. Education doesn't imply atheism - it implies a deeper understanding and a more solid basis for ones beliefs (either way). It's like all these discussions we've had over the last couple of days: evolution, quantum mechanics and relativity, plate techtonics etc etc. The more you see and the more you understand the more you find yourself hitting a point (as Paul will attest) where you go 'That's so cool. Almost too cool...' cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
"Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are religious." True "Some of the most morons in this world are religious." True "Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are atheists." True "Some of the most morons in this world are atheists." True God bless atheists!
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
I believe that most programmers are religious people. There is Linux religion, STL religion, Delphi religion, Oracle religion, C++ religion, Java religion, GC religion, and more recently, XML religion Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
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So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. Apparently he gives some more time to repent their sins than others. Mike's best friend's sister got two years. So God is good and loving - but not very fair. Steve T. Philosophy: Questions that may never be answered. Religion: Answers that may never be questioned.
I guess I'd have to agree on one level, especially since if "fair" meant "always just and never forgiving", none of us would be here to have this conversation in the first place. However, most poeple think of "fair" as something along the lines of "treated the same" or "treated equally". In that sense, God is both fair and "unfair". The Bible says that, He sends rain on the just and the unjust in Matthew 5:45. By that one act alone he is being fair by treating people the same, but unfair by also blessing the people that we would think don't deserve it. Actually, I haven't run across any statement where God claims to be fair, in fact I see a few places in the Bible where it is stated rather plainly the opposite way. (Romans 9:14-16 is one good spot.) Anyway, there are a lot more important things than our human concept of fairness. And goodness obviously doesn't mean fairness or you would never call anyone good since no human can treat everyone else the same (well maybe a 100% hermit who never had contact with anyone). John
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"most good programmers are skeptics" Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. So, you're skeptical about skepticism?:) Personally, I don't believe any of this. I don't even believe in the existance of this thread until somebody shows me strong evidence to to contrary. :) Craig Dodge A catchy signature should appear here.
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Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. So, you're skeptical about skepticism?:) Personally, I don't believe any of this. I don't even believe in the existance of this thread until somebody shows me strong evidence to to contrary. :) Craig Dodge A catchy signature should appear here.
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I actually don't think any of you really exist. CodeProject is just an elaborate joke Hassan is playing on me. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Funny, I thought Hassan was an elaborate joke that Code Project is playing on me ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
All great programmers are athesists (sic) This is not true. On the other hand all great programmers hate Vegemite and love 80's hard rock. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
I don't normally bother engaging in serious discussion with trollers, but the Bible indictaes the world is round, way before we realised it. You're saying quarks are what ? Too complex to be created, they obviously came into being spontaneously ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. I will bet that even within our lifetimes, filled with wonderous modern day scientists, we will see the overthrow of a lot of commonly held scientific thinking. Never ever believe that we are right and are infallable as opposed to the scientists of old. There is much we do not know and are still to discover, a lot of which will discount our beliefs, scientific or religious. In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
I am always amazed when people seem to presume that while every other generation felt they understood the world through finally coming to a scientific observation whereby everything has been explained and were wrong, we are lucky enough to be right. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I actually don't think any of you really exist. CodeProject is just an elaborate joke Hassan is playing on me. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
There is no CodeProject.
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I am always amazed when people seem to presume that while every other generation felt they understood the world through finally coming to a scientific observation whereby everything has been explained and were wrong, we are lucky enough to be right. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Well I know I am about everything, but then you knew that already. Didn't you? :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I've generally stayed out of these religious threads until now. I have read all of them and have found them quite interesting. My comments/question aren't necesarily specific to this thread topic (or this branch of it) but maybe some of the pseudo-religious scholars would like to comment. Up to when I was 9 years old, my mother made sure I attended Catholic church and sunday school every week. One evening our neighbors house caught fire. My best friend and his 2 year old sister burned to death. Their screams haunted me for many years. A couple weeks later, I asked my mother why God allowed them to suffer so much in their deaths. She had no good answer, but suggested I talk to our priest. He also had no good answer. A few months later, after my sister's confirmation I had a chance to ask a bishop the same question. Once again, no good answer. I've been an atheist ever since. Why would a good god allow two innocent children to suffer in such a horrible death? And don't patronize me with "God has a purpose or God works in mysterious ways", I'm not buying it.:confused: Mike Mullikin "Real programmers don't document their code. It was hard to write - it should be hard to read!"
Mike I can relate to this almost exactly. I also was 9, did the whole Church/Sunday school thing (though it was Anglican). Difference was I was sexually assaulted, aetheist from around that time on. Absolutely no chance of conversion, and it ain't a closed mind. Just a logical one saying WTF was God doing when it happened to me. WTF are these religious zealots on when they say to me God has a plan butallows his priests to fuck little boys. It's all bullshit. Beatifully packaged bullshit mind you. When you die you will go to heaven and know there is a God. Great marketing this, cause if you just die and then go mouldy and get eaten by bugs your not about to make a comeback and complain now are you? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. I will bet that even within our lifetimes, filled with wonderous modern day scientists, we will see the overthrow of a lot of commonly held scientific thinking. Never ever believe that we are right and are infallable as opposed to the scientists of old. There is much we do not know and are still to discover, a lot of which will discount our beliefs, scientific or religious. In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. Already been done! Special relativity does just this. ;P
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The more you see and the more you understand the more you find yourself hitting a point (as Paul will attest) where you go 'That's so cool. Almost too cool...' Wow that is a bona-fida compliment coming from a genius like Chris. :-D I hit a point! wooohooo ;) Even an average joe like myself sometimes sees past the everyday of life into this incredible realm which, to borrow a phrase, blows my mind. To borrow a quote from the venerable Arthur C. Clarke: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Oft I think that we see magic everyday. I can only begin to imagine what the leading scientists, theologists and philosophers have seen. It must be incredible. In a way this really ties in with my love for reading, especially sci-fi and fantasy. Both those genres really require a very open mind and offer up worlds of possibilities for your imagination to run with. If I had the dilligence and pure intelligence neccesary I would love to get into some heavy physics (god, I hope I did not spell psychics, lol) and cosmological courses. I could then back up my ideas and also develop them further. Alas, I am but a humble typer with much too many questions :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
I would love to get into some heavy physics (god, I hope I did not spell psychics, lol) and cosmological courses. It's a lot easier just to grab anything by Stephen Hawking or Paul Davies and get the abridged version. I remember in 3rd year quantum mechanics we were going through the effects of the electromagnetic field produced by a moving electron, and the affect the field that the electron produces on the electron itself. After a week of buildup that basically took everything we'd learned in the last 3 years and mixed in the QM we ended up with a result that showed that the electron was affected by the field before the field was actually generated. We sat there like stunned mullets going 'wow'. It's just so cool. The problem though was that it takes SO much work to get to all the really cool things that you hear about (quantum tunneling, relativistic effects, the magic of life). They are all just the tip of a very big and often very dull iceberg. Kind of part of the reason that I left science for the instant gratification of computing ;) (that and the fact that at that stage even top scientists were getting paid less than the average first year computing graduate). If you want a real brain bend do mathematics as well. Topology and Class Theory always left me wobbly. cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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I've generally stayed out of these religious threads until now. I have read all of them and have found them quite interesting. My comments/question aren't necesarily specific to this thread topic (or this branch of it) but maybe some of the pseudo-religious scholars would like to comment. Up to when I was 9 years old, my mother made sure I attended Catholic church and sunday school every week. One evening our neighbors house caught fire. My best friend and his 2 year old sister burned to death. Their screams haunted me for many years. A couple weeks later, I asked my mother why God allowed them to suffer so much in their deaths. She had no good answer, but suggested I talk to our priest. He also had no good answer. A few months later, after my sister's confirmation I had a chance to ask a bishop the same question. Once again, no good answer. I've been an atheist ever since. Why would a good god allow two innocent children to suffer in such a horrible death? And don't patronize me with "God has a purpose or God works in mysterious ways", I'm not buying it.:confused: Mike Mullikin "Real programmers don't document their code. It was hard to write - it should be hard to read!"
Mike, You are dealing with the topic of "theodicy", whihc basically means an attempt to deal with the concepts of "evil". This remains the greatest unresolved conumdrum of theological debate within the Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions. Excerpt from: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/niclas\_berggren/theodicy.html A strong argument against the existence of the Christian god (henceforth referred to as God) is contained in the theodicy problem, which can be stated in the following manner: 1. If God exists, he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good. 2. The existence of suffering is incompatible with the existence of God. 3. Suffering exists. 4. God does not exist. To make the argument clearer, consider the following clarifications. An all-knowing being will be aware of suffering; an all-powerful being will be able to prevent suffering; and a perfectly good being will desire to prevent suffering. If suffering exists, then God - who is characterized by the three attributes stated in point 1 - does not exist. It is possible for some other, non-Biblical god to exist, but he cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good, though he may be one or two of these. No one has satifactorily resolved this problem. There are two camps that theologians (and religious faiths) take to deal with this. First, it's a mystery - this is the "God works in mysterious ways" approach. Essentially, it's an admission that they can't figure this out, so they'll just overlook it. I also "don't buy" this, but it's the most common 'answer' offered by the traditional faiths. Really, I see this as an admission of failure by most Christian faiths! The second is to remove one of god's attributes - either he is not 'all-powerful', or he is 'not perfectly good'. Various sects and offshoots of the core christians faiths take this approach in varying degrees. This approach does resolve the theodicy crisis, but at the expense of god's central characteristics - you end up either with a god who has the capacity and desire to do wrong occasionally, or a god who has limits. Either way, he's not the god of the bible. Personally, I find this the most compelling argument against the god of the bible, and the bible itself. There are, of course, many others!! ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."