Programmers and Atheists
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Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. So, you're skeptical about skepticism?:) Personally, I don't believe any of this. I don't even believe in the existance of this thread until somebody shows me strong evidence to to contrary. :) Craig Dodge A catchy signature should appear here.
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I actually don't think any of you really exist. CodeProject is just an elaborate joke Hassan is playing on me. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Funny, I thought Hassan was an elaborate joke that Code Project is playing on me ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
All great programmers are athesists (sic) This is not true. On the other hand all great programmers hate Vegemite and love 80's hard rock. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
I don't normally bother engaging in serious discussion with trollers, but the Bible indictaes the world is round, way before we realised it. You're saying quarks are what ? Too complex to be created, they obviously came into being spontaneously ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. I will bet that even within our lifetimes, filled with wonderous modern day scientists, we will see the overthrow of a lot of commonly held scientific thinking. Never ever believe that we are right and are infallable as opposed to the scientists of old. There is much we do not know and are still to discover, a lot of which will discount our beliefs, scientific or religious. In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
I am always amazed when people seem to presume that while every other generation felt they understood the world through finally coming to a scientific observation whereby everything has been explained and were wrong, we are lucky enough to be right. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I actually don't think any of you really exist. CodeProject is just an elaborate joke Hassan is playing on me. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
There is no CodeProject.
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I am always amazed when people seem to presume that while every other generation felt they understood the world through finally coming to a scientific observation whereby everything has been explained and were wrong, we are lucky enough to be right. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Well I know I am about everything, but then you knew that already. Didn't you? :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I've generally stayed out of these religious threads until now. I have read all of them and have found them quite interesting. My comments/question aren't necesarily specific to this thread topic (or this branch of it) but maybe some of the pseudo-religious scholars would like to comment. Up to when I was 9 years old, my mother made sure I attended Catholic church and sunday school every week. One evening our neighbors house caught fire. My best friend and his 2 year old sister burned to death. Their screams haunted me for many years. A couple weeks later, I asked my mother why God allowed them to suffer so much in their deaths. She had no good answer, but suggested I talk to our priest. He also had no good answer. A few months later, after my sister's confirmation I had a chance to ask a bishop the same question. Once again, no good answer. I've been an atheist ever since. Why would a good god allow two innocent children to suffer in such a horrible death? And don't patronize me with "God has a purpose or God works in mysterious ways", I'm not buying it.:confused: Mike Mullikin "Real programmers don't document their code. It was hard to write - it should be hard to read!"
Mike I can relate to this almost exactly. I also was 9, did the whole Church/Sunday school thing (though it was Anglican). Difference was I was sexually assaulted, aetheist from around that time on. Absolutely no chance of conversion, and it ain't a closed mind. Just a logical one saying WTF was God doing when it happened to me. WTF are these religious zealots on when they say to me God has a plan butallows his priests to fuck little boys. It's all bullshit. Beatifully packaged bullshit mind you. When you die you will go to heaven and know there is a God. Great marketing this, cause if you just die and then go mouldy and get eaten by bugs your not about to make a comeback and complain now are you? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. I will bet that even within our lifetimes, filled with wonderous modern day scientists, we will see the overthrow of a lot of commonly held scientific thinking. Never ever believe that we are right and are infallable as opposed to the scientists of old. There is much we do not know and are still to discover, a lot of which will discount our beliefs, scientific or religious. In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. Already been done! Special relativity does just this. ;P
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The more you see and the more you understand the more you find yourself hitting a point (as Paul will attest) where you go 'That's so cool. Almost too cool...' Wow that is a bona-fida compliment coming from a genius like Chris. :-D I hit a point! wooohooo ;) Even an average joe like myself sometimes sees past the everyday of life into this incredible realm which, to borrow a phrase, blows my mind. To borrow a quote from the venerable Arthur C. Clarke: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Oft I think that we see magic everyday. I can only begin to imagine what the leading scientists, theologists and philosophers have seen. It must be incredible. In a way this really ties in with my love for reading, especially sci-fi and fantasy. Both those genres really require a very open mind and offer up worlds of possibilities for your imagination to run with. If I had the dilligence and pure intelligence neccesary I would love to get into some heavy physics (god, I hope I did not spell psychics, lol) and cosmological courses. I could then back up my ideas and also develop them further. Alas, I am but a humble typer with much too many questions :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
I would love to get into some heavy physics (god, I hope I did not spell psychics, lol) and cosmological courses. It's a lot easier just to grab anything by Stephen Hawking or Paul Davies and get the abridged version. I remember in 3rd year quantum mechanics we were going through the effects of the electromagnetic field produced by a moving electron, and the affect the field that the electron produces on the electron itself. After a week of buildup that basically took everything we'd learned in the last 3 years and mixed in the QM we ended up with a result that showed that the electron was affected by the field before the field was actually generated. We sat there like stunned mullets going 'wow'. It's just so cool. The problem though was that it takes SO much work to get to all the really cool things that you hear about (quantum tunneling, relativistic effects, the magic of life). They are all just the tip of a very big and often very dull iceberg. Kind of part of the reason that I left science for the instant gratification of computing ;) (that and the fact that at that stage even top scientists were getting paid less than the average first year computing graduate). If you want a real brain bend do mathematics as well. Topology and Class Theory always left me wobbly. cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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I've generally stayed out of these religious threads until now. I have read all of them and have found them quite interesting. My comments/question aren't necesarily specific to this thread topic (or this branch of it) but maybe some of the pseudo-religious scholars would like to comment. Up to when I was 9 years old, my mother made sure I attended Catholic church and sunday school every week. One evening our neighbors house caught fire. My best friend and his 2 year old sister burned to death. Their screams haunted me for many years. A couple weeks later, I asked my mother why God allowed them to suffer so much in their deaths. She had no good answer, but suggested I talk to our priest. He also had no good answer. A few months later, after my sister's confirmation I had a chance to ask a bishop the same question. Once again, no good answer. I've been an atheist ever since. Why would a good god allow two innocent children to suffer in such a horrible death? And don't patronize me with "God has a purpose or God works in mysterious ways", I'm not buying it.:confused: Mike Mullikin "Real programmers don't document their code. It was hard to write - it should be hard to read!"
Mike, You are dealing with the topic of "theodicy", whihc basically means an attempt to deal with the concepts of "evil". This remains the greatest unresolved conumdrum of theological debate within the Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions. Excerpt from: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/niclas\_berggren/theodicy.html A strong argument against the existence of the Christian god (henceforth referred to as God) is contained in the theodicy problem, which can be stated in the following manner: 1. If God exists, he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good. 2. The existence of suffering is incompatible with the existence of God. 3. Suffering exists. 4. God does not exist. To make the argument clearer, consider the following clarifications. An all-knowing being will be aware of suffering; an all-powerful being will be able to prevent suffering; and a perfectly good being will desire to prevent suffering. If suffering exists, then God - who is characterized by the three attributes stated in point 1 - does not exist. It is possible for some other, non-Biblical god to exist, but he cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good, though he may be one or two of these. No one has satifactorily resolved this problem. There are two camps that theologians (and religious faiths) take to deal with this. First, it's a mystery - this is the "God works in mysterious ways" approach. Essentially, it's an admission that they can't figure this out, so they'll just overlook it. I also "don't buy" this, but it's the most common 'answer' offered by the traditional faiths. Really, I see this as an admission of failure by most Christian faiths! The second is to remove one of god's attributes - either he is not 'all-powerful', or he is 'not perfectly good'. Various sects and offshoots of the core christians faiths take this approach in varying degrees. This approach does resolve the theodicy crisis, but at the expense of god's central characteristics - you end up either with a god who has the capacity and desire to do wrong occasionally, or a god who has limits. Either way, he's not the god of the bible. Personally, I find this the most compelling argument against the god of the bible, and the bible itself. There are, of course, many others!! ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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I guess I'd have to agree on one level, especially since if "fair" meant "always just and never forgiving", none of us would be here to have this conversation in the first place. However, most poeple think of "fair" as something along the lines of "treated the same" or "treated equally". In that sense, God is both fair and "unfair". The Bible says that, He sends rain on the just and the unjust in Matthew 5:45. By that one act alone he is being fair by treating people the same, but unfair by also blessing the people that we would think don't deserve it. Actually, I haven't run across any statement where God claims to be fair, in fact I see a few places in the Bible where it is stated rather plainly the opposite way. (Romans 9:14-16 is one good spot.) Anyway, there are a lot more important things than our human concept of fairness. And goodness obviously doesn't mean fairness or you would never call anyone good since no human can treat everyone else the same (well maybe a 100% hermit who never had contact with anyone). John
You fail two tests in your responses. First, what chance does a 3 month baby have to choose to repent or not before they are killed by a falling tree? Basic christian concepts of 'free will', 'choice' and 'sin' have some resonance for adults, but fail badly when applied to children. This is not surprising however, when you view the context in which the bible evolved - children were certainly little more than 'possesions' in biblical times, and therefore it's easy to see how the writers of the bible paid them little attention (other than to kill them at regular intervals - does no one else thing it's a little strange that god killed the egyptian children for Pharoah's sins, rather than just breaking Pharoahs legs??) Second, you assume that 'evil' (pain, death, etc) is a result of, or punishment for, sin. However, there is no evidence that all 'evil' in the world can be linked to 'sin' - and there is certainly a very poor case that it has a direct cause and effect relationship. Theodicy remains a problem that christianity has not, and probably never will, resolve. Accept the "mystery" of it all if you wish, but for many it provides ample proof that the simplistic solutions offered by the bible are in fact invalid - either god is real, but much more complex that the bible suggests, or god doesn't exist. Either way, the bible is invalidated. And a last note - I reject the "we cannot hope to understand god" line of argument - surely, that is precisely what the bible is intended to offer us. The word of the lord, letting us know how and why. So why is it that when all is said and done, we are left with "it's a mystery" when dealing with the most fundamental issues in our lives - why we suffer. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
And I find the opposite true. I find it unimaginable that someone who is studying Quarks, etc does not believe in GOD. Sorry but I lost the reference so these numbers are made up but they are in the general range. Taken from a probabilistic analysis the random chance that our environment would be in the correct balance to have life created or continue to exist was something like 1 in 10^23^300^50th. IE very unlikely and more likely to not be random but controlled. However my main belief that there is a GOD (ignoring if my choice of which GOD) is what is the impact if there is not. Search the web for Pascal’s Wager. From the Christian perspective it seam logical that this should make the choice to believe in GOD obvious, however you can find this argument is easily refuted in that the assumption that you have not lost anything in believing in GOD if he does not exist is contradicted by the statement (found many time in my searching) that an atheist would have spent less time doing good work for the world while praying to GOD. This is what I find frightening. If there is not an ultimate definition of good from GOD than good is defined by the man doing the work. Or to rephrase this, the men who flew the airplanes into the WTC are as correct in saying the act was good and my statement that it was evil. There is no ultimate authority to select who was right. So I choose to believe. And in no way do I intend to state the act was good due to his apparent religions teachings! I have many good freinds who are Moslem and they equaly agree the act was evil.
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Well, I don't see how a good could make people with 4 toes instead of 5, so there must not be a god. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Short, sharp, and irrelevant. You've totally missed the point. The issue is not whether we can, or should understand god and his intentions (why do we have 4 toes or 5, or 6). What is at stake here is the nature of god, which we are told is clearly defined and understood in the bible - after all, that is one of the main purposes of the book. However, the god decribed there simply cannot exist in any logical sense. Therefore god is either not accurately described by the bible, or he's not logical. Either way, he's not what the bible says he is. Personally, I choose to think that means he's not there at all. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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Hi Mike, I have never come close to experiencing such a tragedy as you describe, I can't even come close to really understanding how you feel. Why God allows suffering in the world is a difficult question that many people have, you are not alone. I will try to present the Christian answer to this question, but please understand that I do not have your experience which makes this easier to say than actually comprehend. The Christian answer to this goes back to the beginning when Adam and Eve first sinned. Before they ate from the forbidden fruit, there was no sin and therefore no pain or suffering. It was not possible for any man to die or be hurt. Once man rebelled against God, sin entered the picture allowing suffering and death. It was man who rebelled against God and therefore allowed suffering and death into the world. Unfortunately all of man is in the same situation due to the actions of our ancestors (Adam and Eve) - we are all born into sin. This means we will all eventually die and some of us will experience extrordinary pain and suffering. This was not God's plan, it was mans rebellion that caused this. Although God has the power to intervene and prevent pain and suffering, it is done at his discretion. This supernatural intervention is not common however, man in general lives its entire life in pain and suffering. The solution to this pain and suffering is the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. God never intended for your best friend, his sister or you to experience this tragedy. He could have prevented it, but he didn't because free will results in both good and bad things and we (Adam and Eve) rebelled allowing the bad things to enter our life. It is easier to blame he who could have prevented the tragedy (God) than man, but it really is man who is to blame. Chris Hafey
Pure nonsense. No 'good' god can possibly punish future, unborn generations for the sins and choices of the current generation. To do so violates several basic principles of morality, and forces the conclusion that god either doesn't care, is unable to help, or is not who you think he is. Take your choice, but you lose no matter which road you take. You're running the "Free Will" defense, and it works only if you aren't prepared to think things through. I suggest you investigate the theological discussions surrounding the topic of "theodicy" before you offer such simplistic and illogical arguments. Perhaps if more christians truly understood the nature of the contradictions that the bible brings forth we'd have fewer christians!! ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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Pure nonsense. No 'good' god can possibly punish future, unborn generations for the sins and choices of the current generation. To do so violates several basic principles of morality, and forces the conclusion that god either doesn't care, is unable to help, or is not who you think he is. Take your choice, but you lose no matter which road you take. You're running the "Free Will" defense, and it works only if you aren't prepared to think things through. I suggest you investigate the theological discussions surrounding the topic of "theodicy" before you offer such simplistic and illogical arguments. Perhaps if more christians truly understood the nature of the contradictions that the bible brings forth we'd have fewer christians!! ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
If there is a God that is powerful enough to create and destroy the universe, how can you possibly reason that you are in a position to judge him? You are paid to write software which is complex, yet how does that compare to miracle of life? It doesn't even come close, yet you have the gall to judge God! Talk about nonsense! You claim that God doesn't care, how can you say this when he sent his own son to die for the sins of the world! Would you spare your child's life for anyone? How about for billions of people that constantly disobey you? Not only does he care but he has made unnecessary sacrafices so that we can be reconcicled to him. You claim that God is unable to help, yet miracles still happen every day. I have personally witnessed many miracles, a few great ones and many smaller ones. It is God's discretion when and where he intervenes, you may not like his choices, but that certainly does not mean he is unable to help. You claim that he is not who I think he is, yet my answer is consistent with the doctrine of the largest religion on earth. Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus, I have this relationship and my experience is that Jesus is consistent and unchanging. You claim that I am not prepared to think things through, yet you don't even know me. Those who do know me would say that I have an open mind and that I have changed my thinking several times throughout my life. I want to know the truth, without it my life has no meaning or purpose. I am not a biblical scholar, I have so much to learn (about Christianity as well as other religions!). I must confess that I am not familiar with the topic of "theodicy". I will research it though, thank you for pointing it out. I am going to conclude this discussion by saying that my wife and I will be praying for you and your family. Your posts are full of anger and disrespect and it would be suprising if these do not effect your relationships with your family and friends. Chris Hafey
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If there is a God that is powerful enough to create and destroy the universe, how can you possibly reason that you are in a position to judge him? You are paid to write software which is complex, yet how does that compare to miracle of life? It doesn't even come close, yet you have the gall to judge God! Talk about nonsense! You claim that God doesn't care, how can you say this when he sent his own son to die for the sins of the world! Would you spare your child's life for anyone? How about for billions of people that constantly disobey you? Not only does he care but he has made unnecessary sacrafices so that we can be reconcicled to him. You claim that God is unable to help, yet miracles still happen every day. I have personally witnessed many miracles, a few great ones and many smaller ones. It is God's discretion when and where he intervenes, you may not like his choices, but that certainly does not mean he is unable to help. You claim that he is not who I think he is, yet my answer is consistent with the doctrine of the largest religion on earth. Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus, I have this relationship and my experience is that Jesus is consistent and unchanging. You claim that I am not prepared to think things through, yet you don't even know me. Those who do know me would say that I have an open mind and that I have changed my thinking several times throughout my life. I want to know the truth, without it my life has no meaning or purpose. I am not a biblical scholar, I have so much to learn (about Christianity as well as other religions!). I must confess that I am not familiar with the topic of "theodicy". I will research it though, thank you for pointing it out. I am going to conclude this discussion by saying that my wife and I will be praying for you and your family. Your posts are full of anger and disrespect and it would be suprising if these do not effect your relationships with your family and friends. Chris Hafey
Chris, Unfortunately, like so many Christians, and in particular catholics, you do not even understand your own religion. I do not judge god - I judge the quality of the bible, and question it's internal contradictions. From this, I conclude there is no god. How could I dare do this ? Because the bible is supposedly god's word to me - I am supposed to use it as the doorway that leads to god. Therefore I MUST judge the quality of this work! The Catholic Church's offical position on the issue of 'Theodicy' is that it is a "mystery". In other words, the explanation you offered in your original post is WRONG. Suffering, sin, redemption, etc are not clearly spelled out by the church and it's teachings - rather, at the most basic level, the Churches' leading theologians admit they can't resolve the contradictions inherent in the bible's teachings. This is okay for them (and possibly you) - they just decide to live with it. Fine, if that's what you want to do, then live with it - but at least understand what you are living with. My 'anger and disrepect' is/was based on the largely incorrect explanation you offered. I stand by this, and offer the Catholic church as support for my position. I draw a different conclusion from the church, but we both at least understand the problem and it's nature - your posts indicate you do not even understand perhaps the single greatest issue in the theological underpinnings of Christianity. As you say, I am not familiar with the topic of "theodicy". Don't feel too bad - most christians aren't! This is yet another reason for my rejection of the christian faiths - the elite at the head of the church seem either unable or unwilling to explain to the masses just what it all REALLY means. Spare me your prayers - they mean nothing to me, and will have no effect on or for me. And I am happy to be judged by my friends and family for what and who I am. Strangely enough, I consider my family and friends to be a collection of compassionate, intelligent, caring people - and not one of them is Jewish, Christian or Islamic. Just another little thing that makes me feel the link between religion and compassion/caring is highly overrated. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. Already been done! Special relativity does just this. ;P
lol well there you go, did not even take a million years :) So you care to explain how 1 + 1 does not equal 2? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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You fail two tests in your responses. First, what chance does a 3 month baby have to choose to repent or not before they are killed by a falling tree? Basic christian concepts of 'free will', 'choice' and 'sin' have some resonance for adults, but fail badly when applied to children. This is not surprising however, when you view the context in which the bible evolved - children were certainly little more than 'possesions' in biblical times, and therefore it's easy to see how the writers of the bible paid them little attention (other than to kill them at regular intervals - does no one else thing it's a little strange that god killed the egyptian children for Pharoah's sins, rather than just breaking Pharoahs legs??) Second, you assume that 'evil' (pain, death, etc) is a result of, or punishment for, sin. However, there is no evidence that all 'evil' in the world can be linked to 'sin' - and there is certainly a very poor case that it has a direct cause and effect relationship. Theodicy remains a problem that christianity has not, and probably never will, resolve. Accept the "mystery" of it all if you wish, but for many it provides ample proof that the simplistic solutions offered by the bible are in fact invalid - either god is real, but much more complex that the bible suggests, or god doesn't exist. Either way, the bible is invalidated. And a last note - I reject the "we cannot hope to understand god" line of argument - surely, that is precisely what the bible is intended to offer us. The word of the lord, letting us know how and why. So why is it that when all is said and done, we are left with "it's a mystery" when dealing with the most fundamental issues in our lives - why we suffer. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
Did I pass any tests? ;) I never said a 3 month old baby necessarily had a chance to repent, and I did say that true justice would have prevented _any_ of us from being born in the first place. Did you miss that part? The point is that God is being "unfair" to our advantage, not the other way around. children were certainly little more than 'possesions' in biblical times, and therefore it's easy to see how the writers of the bible paid them little attention Which "bible" are you reading? The one Christians use says a lot of things about children which directly contradict what you said. The book of Proverbs has several good comments, in fact the first several chapter were the sayings of a father who was speaking to his son out of love in order to prepare him to make good choices. Second, you assume that 'evil' (pain, death, etc) is a result of, or punishment for, sin. However, there is no evidence that all 'evil' in the world can be linked to 'sin' - and there is certainly a very poor case that it has a direct cause and effect relationship. There is such evidence. You simply choose to ignore it or discount it before giving it a chance to be explained. Theodicy remains a problem that christianity has not, and probably never will, resolve. Accept the "mystery" of it all if you wish, but for many it provides ample proof that the simplistic solutions offered by the bible are in fact invalid - either god is real, but much more complex that the bible suggests, or god doesn't exist. Either way, the bible is invalidated. Once again, you're arguing from a incredibly incomplete understanding of what the Bible says. No one who has understood the Bible could think that there is even a possibility for God to be more complex than the Bible teaches. Here's are some references: Isaish 55:8,9; The entire book of Job (particularly the last few chapters); 1 Corinthians 2:9-14; and many others. And a last note - I reject the "we cannot hope to understand god" line of argument - surely, that is precisely what the bible is intended to offer us. The word of the lord, letting us know how and why. So why is it that when all is said and done, we are left with "it's a mystery" when dealing with the most fundamental issues in our lives - why we suffer. Sigh. You don't understand even the most basic aspects of the Bible. The whole point of the Bible is to reveal to us the things your complaining about not being told to us! It's not a "mystery". I know why we suffer, but it appea
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Did I pass any tests? ;) I never said a 3 month old baby necessarily had a chance to repent, and I did say that true justice would have prevented _any_ of us from being born in the first place. Did you miss that part? The point is that God is being "unfair" to our advantage, not the other way around. children were certainly little more than 'possesions' in biblical times, and therefore it's easy to see how the writers of the bible paid them little attention Which "bible" are you reading? The one Christians use says a lot of things about children which directly contradict what you said. The book of Proverbs has several good comments, in fact the first several chapter were the sayings of a father who was speaking to his son out of love in order to prepare him to make good choices. Second, you assume that 'evil' (pain, death, etc) is a result of, or punishment for, sin. However, there is no evidence that all 'evil' in the world can be linked to 'sin' - and there is certainly a very poor case that it has a direct cause and effect relationship. There is such evidence. You simply choose to ignore it or discount it before giving it a chance to be explained. Theodicy remains a problem that christianity has not, and probably never will, resolve. Accept the "mystery" of it all if you wish, but for many it provides ample proof that the simplistic solutions offered by the bible are in fact invalid - either god is real, but much more complex that the bible suggests, or god doesn't exist. Either way, the bible is invalidated. Once again, you're arguing from a incredibly incomplete understanding of what the Bible says. No one who has understood the Bible could think that there is even a possibility for God to be more complex than the Bible teaches. Here's are some references: Isaish 55:8,9; The entire book of Job (particularly the last few chapters); 1 Corinthians 2:9-14; and many others. And a last note - I reject the "we cannot hope to understand god" line of argument - surely, that is precisely what the bible is intended to offer us. The word of the lord, letting us know how and why. So why is it that when all is said and done, we are left with "it's a mystery" when dealing with the most fundamental issues in our lives - why we suffer. Sigh. You don't understand even the most basic aspects of the Bible. The whole point of the Bible is to reveal to us the things your complaining about not being told to us! It's not a "mystery". I know why we suffer, but it appea
John, The point is that God is being "unfair" to our advantage Perhaps we are simply doomed to misunderstand each other. I read the above sentence and have no idea what you can mean. My point was about a human being of 3 months age. Where is their free will, their choice, their opportunity to accept or reject god? Seems to me they had none. Does this mean they were not really a human? Does this mean some 'people' are here just to make up numbers? Am I correct in stating that you believe in a god that has created a world in which a human can be born, suffer in extreme pain for their entire (short) life, then die - without ever having any comprehension of why, or any opportunity to "make amends" for any possible "sin" they carry? This is possible because 6000 years ago a woman took a bite from an apple when she was told not to? You then call this god a merciful, loving god? We obviously have very diffrent views on 'mercy' and 'love'. Which "bible" are you reading? The one Christians use... This is a topic in itself. Which bible do you use? The most commonly used is the KJV - is that your reference? "Christians", unlike Muslims, do not use a single text as their holy book - there are literally hundreds of versions of the bible available, with variations ranging from minor to major. You need to have this particular conversation with Christian Graus - I am sure you and he will both use the label 'christian', and I'm just as sure you will not be using the same bible. Does it really matter? Of course - if you wish to use a verse to support a position you are making, we at least need to agree on the wording of the verse! Just take the debate on the the Flood as an example - you and Christian both put different meanings on the world 'earth', based upon the meaning of other words in the relevant verses which differ. But I'm sure you are convinced that you use the 'correct' bible, and Christain (unfortunately for him) does not. There is such evidence. I'd like to see the evidence that says that earthquakes are the result of sin. I really would. I don't believe I 'choose to ignore it or discount it' - whenever I look, the evidence is either not there, or easily discounted. It's not a "mystery". I know why we suffer,... Then may I suggest that you pass this information on the Papacy, which openly admits that the issue is "a mystery". You do NOT understand the issue of "theodicy", or you would not be saying this. Or perhaps you are just a lot smarter t