Programmers and Atheists
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I almost didn't answer this, because no mere human can ever hope to completely understand God. Some things the Bible says on the subject: Anyone who has ever been disobedient in any way (other than disobeying a lower authority in order to obey a higher authority), is guilty of sin. Hence, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Also, the Bible tells us that the rightful payment for sin is death. (Romans 6:23) So, truthfully the question should be, "Why does God let anyone live at all?". The answer to that is found in 2 Peter 3:9, where it says that God is longsuffering and desires that people would repent of their sin and choose the life He offers. John 3:16 tells us that God loves everyone, so He did something to pay for our sin. So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. John
So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. Apparently he gives some more time to repent their sins than others. Mike's best friend's sister got two years. So God is good and loving - but not very fair. Steve T. Philosophy: Questions that may never be answered. Religion: Answers that may never be questioned.
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. Really? Why not? Every one, religious or not, knows the Bible says that God created Heavon and Earth. What the Bible does NOT say is how. It doesn't say "God created the universe, and it was made of cheese". It doesn't say anything, that I'm aware of, of the means that He took at all to create the universe. So it's certainly a possiblity that God created quarks and atoms. Think about how complex life is. It takes a DNA strand (of which there are 46 [I believe] per cell in the human body) that is 2 billion pieces in length to describe a person. That's 92 billion pieces of DNA programming that have to fit in to each and every one of our cells, so of course they'd have to be small, and of course that means that, from a religious stand point, God would HAVE to had made the quark and atom. People always see religion and science as being opposing forces. In reality, they can be very mutual. It's another one of those "point of view" things. :) Jamie Nordmeyer Portland, Oregon, USA
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Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are religious. Part of the desire to understand the way the universe ticks is to get closer to God and understand the divine beauty He created. Education doesn't imply atheism - it implies a deeper understanding and a more solid basis for ones beliefs (either way). It's like all these discussions we've had over the last couple of days: evolution, quantum mechanics and relativity, plate techtonics etc etc. The more you see and the more you understand the more you find yourself hitting a point (as Paul will attest) where you go 'That's so cool. Almost too cool...' cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
"Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are religious." True "Some of the most morons in this world are religious." True "Some of the brightest and most famous scientists in this world are atheists." True "Some of the most morons in this world are atheists." True God bless atheists!
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
I believe that most programmers are religious people. There is Linux religion, STL religion, Delphi religion, Oracle religion, C++ religion, Java religion, GC religion, and more recently, XML religion Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
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So, the reason God can allow these things is because we all deserve the payment for sin (death), but we don't all get it because God is good and loving, giving us time to reject our sinfulness and to choose Him. Apparently he gives some more time to repent their sins than others. Mike's best friend's sister got two years. So God is good and loving - but not very fair. Steve T. Philosophy: Questions that may never be answered. Religion: Answers that may never be questioned.
I guess I'd have to agree on one level, especially since if "fair" meant "always just and never forgiving", none of us would be here to have this conversation in the first place. However, most poeple think of "fair" as something along the lines of "treated the same" or "treated equally". In that sense, God is both fair and "unfair". The Bible says that, He sends rain on the just and the unjust in Matthew 5:45. By that one act alone he is being fair by treating people the same, but unfair by also blessing the people that we would think don't deserve it. Actually, I haven't run across any statement where God claims to be fair, in fact I see a few places in the Bible where it is stated rather plainly the opposite way. (Romans 9:14-16 is one good spot.) Anyway, there are a lot more important things than our human concept of fairness. And goodness obviously doesn't mean fairness or you would never call anyone good since no human can treat everyone else the same (well maybe a 100% hermit who never had contact with anyone). John
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"most good programmers are skeptics" Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. Furor fit laesa saepius patientia
Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. So, you're skeptical about skepticism?:) Personally, I don't believe any of this. I don't even believe in the existance of this thread until somebody shows me strong evidence to to contrary. :) Craig Dodge A catchy signature should appear here.
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Excuse me, but I disagree: I can't believe most good programmers are skeptics unless there are strong evidences. So, you're skeptical about skepticism?:) Personally, I don't believe any of this. I don't even believe in the existance of this thread until somebody shows me strong evidence to to contrary. :) Craig Dodge A catchy signature should appear here.
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I actually don't think any of you really exist. CodeProject is just an elaborate joke Hassan is playing on me. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Funny, I thought Hassan was an elaborate joke that Code Project is playing on me ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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hey I am gonna make a few statements below :- "Most good programmers are atheists" "All great programmers are athesists" "Most atheist programmers are good/great programmers" I just want you guys to ponder over those statements. The whole point is only smart people can write smart programs. And smart people know god is a trash-theory for the simple reason that, they are smart :-) Nish :suss:
All great programmers are athesists (sic) This is not true. On the other hand all great programmers hate Vegemite and love 80's hard rock. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
I don't normally bother engaging in serious discussion with trollers, but the Bible indictaes the world is round, way before we realised it. You're saying quarks are what ? Too complex to be created, they obviously came into being spontaneously ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. I will bet that even within our lifetimes, filled with wonderous modern day scientists, we will see the overthrow of a lot of commonly held scientific thinking. Never ever believe that we are right and are infallable as opposed to the scientists of old. There is much we do not know and are still to discover, a lot of which will discount our beliefs, scientific or religious. In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
I am always amazed when people seem to presume that while every other generation felt they understood the world through finally coming to a scientific observation whereby everything has been explained and were wrong, we are lucky enough to be right. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I actually don't think any of you really exist. CodeProject is just an elaborate joke Hassan is playing on me. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
There is no CodeProject.
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I am always amazed when people seem to presume that while every other generation felt they understood the world through finally coming to a scientific observation whereby everything has been explained and were wrong, we are lucky enough to be right. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Well I know I am about everything, but then you knew that already. Didn't you? :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I've generally stayed out of these religious threads until now. I have read all of them and have found them quite interesting. My comments/question aren't necesarily specific to this thread topic (or this branch of it) but maybe some of the pseudo-religious scholars would like to comment. Up to when I was 9 years old, my mother made sure I attended Catholic church and sunday school every week. One evening our neighbors house caught fire. My best friend and his 2 year old sister burned to death. Their screams haunted me for many years. A couple weeks later, I asked my mother why God allowed them to suffer so much in their deaths. She had no good answer, but suggested I talk to our priest. He also had no good answer. A few months later, after my sister's confirmation I had a chance to ask a bishop the same question. Once again, no good answer. I've been an atheist ever since. Why would a good god allow two innocent children to suffer in such a horrible death? And don't patronize me with "God has a purpose or God works in mysterious ways", I'm not buying it.:confused: Mike Mullikin "Real programmers don't document their code. It was hard to write - it should be hard to read!"
Mike I can relate to this almost exactly. I also was 9, did the whole Church/Sunday school thing (though it was Anglican). Difference was I was sexually assaulted, aetheist from around that time on. Absolutely no chance of conversion, and it ain't a closed mind. Just a logical one saying WTF was God doing when it happened to me. WTF are these religious zealots on when they say to me God has a plan butallows his priests to fuck little boys. It's all bullshit. Beatifully packaged bullshit mind you. When you die you will go to heaven and know there is a God. Great marketing this, cause if you just die and then go mouldy and get eaten by bugs your not about to make a comeback and complain now are you? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. I will bet that even within our lifetimes, filled with wonderous modern day scientists, we will see the overthrow of a lot of commonly held scientific thinking. Never ever believe that we are right and are infallable as opposed to the scientists of old. There is much we do not know and are still to discover, a lot of which will discount our beliefs, scientific or religious. In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. Already been done! Special relativity does just this. ;P
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The more you see and the more you understand the more you find yourself hitting a point (as Paul will attest) where you go 'That's so cool. Almost too cool...' Wow that is a bona-fida compliment coming from a genius like Chris. :-D I hit a point! wooohooo ;) Even an average joe like myself sometimes sees past the everyday of life into this incredible realm which, to borrow a phrase, blows my mind. To borrow a quote from the venerable Arthur C. Clarke: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Oft I think that we see magic everyday. I can only begin to imagine what the leading scientists, theologists and philosophers have seen. It must be incredible. In a way this really ties in with my love for reading, especially sci-fi and fantasy. Both those genres really require a very open mind and offer up worlds of possibilities for your imagination to run with. If I had the dilligence and pure intelligence neccesary I would love to get into some heavy physics (god, I hope I did not spell psychics, lol) and cosmological courses. I could then back up my ideas and also develop them further. Alas, I am but a humble typer with much too many questions :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
I would love to get into some heavy physics (god, I hope I did not spell psychics, lol) and cosmological courses. It's a lot easier just to grab anything by Stephen Hawking or Paul Davies and get the abridged version. I remember in 3rd year quantum mechanics we were going through the effects of the electromagnetic field produced by a moving electron, and the affect the field that the electron produces on the electron itself. After a week of buildup that basically took everything we'd learned in the last 3 years and mixed in the QM we ended up with a result that showed that the electron was affected by the field before the field was actually generated. We sat there like stunned mullets going 'wow'. It's just so cool. The problem though was that it takes SO much work to get to all the really cool things that you hear about (quantum tunneling, relativistic effects, the magic of life). They are all just the tip of a very big and often very dull iceberg. Kind of part of the reason that I left science for the instant gratification of computing ;) (that and the fact that at that stage even top scientists were getting paid less than the average first year computing graduate). If you want a real brain bend do mathematics as well. Topology and Class Theory always left me wobbly. cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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I've generally stayed out of these religious threads until now. I have read all of them and have found them quite interesting. My comments/question aren't necesarily specific to this thread topic (or this branch of it) but maybe some of the pseudo-religious scholars would like to comment. Up to when I was 9 years old, my mother made sure I attended Catholic church and sunday school every week. One evening our neighbors house caught fire. My best friend and his 2 year old sister burned to death. Their screams haunted me for many years. A couple weeks later, I asked my mother why God allowed them to suffer so much in their deaths. She had no good answer, but suggested I talk to our priest. He also had no good answer. A few months later, after my sister's confirmation I had a chance to ask a bishop the same question. Once again, no good answer. I've been an atheist ever since. Why would a good god allow two innocent children to suffer in such a horrible death? And don't patronize me with "God has a purpose or God works in mysterious ways", I'm not buying it.:confused: Mike Mullikin "Real programmers don't document their code. It was hard to write - it should be hard to read!"
Mike, You are dealing with the topic of "theodicy", whihc basically means an attempt to deal with the concepts of "evil". This remains the greatest unresolved conumdrum of theological debate within the Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions. Excerpt from: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/niclas\_berggren/theodicy.html A strong argument against the existence of the Christian god (henceforth referred to as God) is contained in the theodicy problem, which can be stated in the following manner: 1. If God exists, he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good. 2. The existence of suffering is incompatible with the existence of God. 3. Suffering exists. 4. God does not exist. To make the argument clearer, consider the following clarifications. An all-knowing being will be aware of suffering; an all-powerful being will be able to prevent suffering; and a perfectly good being will desire to prevent suffering. If suffering exists, then God - who is characterized by the three attributes stated in point 1 - does not exist. It is possible for some other, non-Biblical god to exist, but he cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly good, though he may be one or two of these. No one has satifactorily resolved this problem. There are two camps that theologians (and religious faiths) take to deal with this. First, it's a mystery - this is the "God works in mysterious ways" approach. Essentially, it's an admission that they can't figure this out, so they'll just overlook it. I also "don't buy" this, but it's the most common 'answer' offered by the traditional faiths. Really, I see this as an admission of failure by most Christian faiths! The second is to remove one of god's attributes - either he is not 'all-powerful', or he is 'not perfectly good'. Various sects and offshoots of the core christians faiths take this approach in varying degrees. This approach does resolve the theodicy crisis, but at the expense of god's central characteristics - you end up either with a god who has the capacity and desire to do wrong occasionally, or a god who has limits. Either way, he's not the god of the bible. Personally, I find this the most compelling argument against the god of the bible, and the bible itself. There are, of course, many others!! ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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I guess I'd have to agree on one level, especially since if "fair" meant "always just and never forgiving", none of us would be here to have this conversation in the first place. However, most poeple think of "fair" as something along the lines of "treated the same" or "treated equally". In that sense, God is both fair and "unfair". The Bible says that, He sends rain on the just and the unjust in Matthew 5:45. By that one act alone he is being fair by treating people the same, but unfair by also blessing the people that we would think don't deserve it. Actually, I haven't run across any statement where God claims to be fair, in fact I see a few places in the Bible where it is stated rather plainly the opposite way. (Romans 9:14-16 is one good spot.) Anyway, there are a lot more important things than our human concept of fairness. And goodness obviously doesn't mean fairness or you would never call anyone good since no human can treat everyone else the same (well maybe a 100% hermit who never had contact with anyone). John
You fail two tests in your responses. First, what chance does a 3 month baby have to choose to repent or not before they are killed by a falling tree? Basic christian concepts of 'free will', 'choice' and 'sin' have some resonance for adults, but fail badly when applied to children. This is not surprising however, when you view the context in which the bible evolved - children were certainly little more than 'possesions' in biblical times, and therefore it's easy to see how the writers of the bible paid them little attention (other than to kill them at regular intervals - does no one else thing it's a little strange that god killed the egyptian children for Pharoah's sins, rather than just breaking Pharoahs legs??) Second, you assume that 'evil' (pain, death, etc) is a result of, or punishment for, sin. However, there is no evidence that all 'evil' in the world can be linked to 'sin' - and there is certainly a very poor case that it has a direct cause and effect relationship. Theodicy remains a problem that christianity has not, and probably never will, resolve. Accept the "mystery" of it all if you wish, but for many it provides ample proof that the simplistic solutions offered by the bible are in fact invalid - either god is real, but much more complex that the bible suggests, or god doesn't exist. Either way, the bible is invalidated. And a last note - I reject the "we cannot hope to understand god" line of argument - surely, that is precisely what the bible is intended to offer us. The word of the lord, letting us know how and why. So why is it that when all is said and done, we are left with "it's a mystery" when dealing with the most fundamental issues in our lives - why we suffer. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
And I find the opposite true. I find it unimaginable that someone who is studying Quarks, etc does not believe in GOD. Sorry but I lost the reference so these numbers are made up but they are in the general range. Taken from a probabilistic analysis the random chance that our environment would be in the correct balance to have life created or continue to exist was something like 1 in 10^23^300^50th. IE very unlikely and more likely to not be random but controlled. However my main belief that there is a GOD (ignoring if my choice of which GOD) is what is the impact if there is not. Search the web for Pascal’s Wager. From the Christian perspective it seam logical that this should make the choice to believe in GOD obvious, however you can find this argument is easily refuted in that the assumption that you have not lost anything in believing in GOD if he does not exist is contradicted by the statement (found many time in my searching) that an atheist would have spent less time doing good work for the world while praying to GOD. This is what I find frightening. If there is not an ultimate definition of good from GOD than good is defined by the man doing the work. Or to rephrase this, the men who flew the airplanes into the WTC are as correct in saying the act was good and my statement that it was evil. There is no ultimate authority to select who was right. So I choose to believe. And in no way do I intend to state the act was good due to his apparent religions teachings! I have many good freinds who are Moslem and they equaly agree the act was evil.
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Well, I don't see how a good could make people with 4 toes instead of 5, so there must not be a god. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Short, sharp, and irrelevant. You've totally missed the point. The issue is not whether we can, or should understand god and his intentions (why do we have 4 toes or 5, or 6). What is at stake here is the nature of god, which we are told is clearly defined and understood in the bible - after all, that is one of the main purposes of the book. However, the god decribed there simply cannot exist in any logical sense. Therefore god is either not accurately described by the bible, or he's not logical. Either way, he's not what the bible says he is. Personally, I choose to think that means he's not there at all. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."