Put some Sparkle in Avalon
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What with the recent talk over Longhorn and Avalon I thought you chaps might be interested in this; Sparkle, gunning for Flash Sparkle is the tool that will automate XAML application development. Said one source: Sparkle will let you create XAML and .Net applications." Now call me stupid but am I missing something? According to that, Sparkle is an IDE for XAML, much like you get the Flash IDE to create SWF files that are then embedded in a browser and run using the Flash plugin. So where is the Sparkle plugin? Have they just failed to mention it? Or will Sparkle just be something to whet our appetites and get devs up to speed with XAML in time for Longhorn with you only being able to view Avalon content from within the IDE? (Surely if you are going to be coding something you have to be able to run it!) Or will it only work on the Longhorn preview release, in which case forget all the above and return to your regularly scheduled broadcasting. More here I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Creating web UIs with code is a lot better than using drag and drop like Flash does. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
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What with the recent talk over Longhorn and Avalon I thought you chaps might be interested in this; Sparkle, gunning for Flash Sparkle is the tool that will automate XAML application development. Said one source: Sparkle will let you create XAML and .Net applications." Now call me stupid but am I missing something? According to that, Sparkle is an IDE for XAML, much like you get the Flash IDE to create SWF files that are then embedded in a browser and run using the Flash plugin. So where is the Sparkle plugin? Have they just failed to mention it? Or will Sparkle just be something to whet our appetites and get devs up to speed with XAML in time for Longhorn with you only being able to view Avalon content from within the IDE? (Surely if you are going to be coding something you have to be able to run it!) Or will it only work on the Longhorn preview release, in which case forget all the above and return to your regularly scheduled broadcasting. More here I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Creating web UIs with code is a lot better than using drag and drop like Flash does. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Why not use SVG??? It's open, supports most of the same things as flash. And it's xml. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Why not use SVG??? It's open, supports most of the same things as flash. And it's xml. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
I stand considerably corrected. You are dead right. SVG coupled with all the other specific standards technologies can do all we need. But it needs more support. How many people can use a SVG doc? You need to download a multi megabyte viewer plugin and so far they are not good enough as the demand is not there. It is a pity. SVG with CSS 3, DOM 3 and XForms is going to rock. If they can just find some support in the broader world. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
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What with the recent talk over Longhorn and Avalon I thought you chaps might be interested in this; Sparkle, gunning for Flash Sparkle is the tool that will automate XAML application development. Said one source: Sparkle will let you create XAML and .Net applications." Now call me stupid but am I missing something? According to that, Sparkle is an IDE for XAML, much like you get the Flash IDE to create SWF files that are then embedded in a browser and run using the Flash plugin. So where is the Sparkle plugin? Have they just failed to mention it? Or will Sparkle just be something to whet our appetites and get devs up to speed with XAML in time for Longhorn with you only being able to view Avalon content from within the IDE? (Surely if you are going to be coding something you have to be able to run it!) Or will it only work on the Longhorn preview release, in which case forget all the above and return to your regularly scheduled broadcasting. More here I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Creating web UIs with code is a lot better than using drag and drop like Flash does. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
W3C has been on this one too. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-smil/[^] A nearly player: http://www.x-smiles.org/xsmiles_objectives.html[^] MS will get there first and have it widely deployed. Then everybody will start complaining that they are not following the 'standards'. XForm compatability in Infopath would be really handy though. Ryan
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I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Why not use SVG??? It's open, supports most of the same things as flash. And it's xml. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
XAML will be used to build thick-client apps on Windows as well (not just web stuff). It's a description of the UI, with .NET code being hooked up behind the scenes by something along the lines of an interpreter (if its done at runtime) or a code generator (if its done at compile time). In addition, straight .NET code can be used to create anything XAML can describe, if you don't want to use XAML. Any .NET class that has a default constructor and settable properties can be hooked up in XAML. I'd assume that adding functionality like that to SVG would raise horrendous cries of "embrace & extend is evil!" from the anti MS folks... -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Why not use SVG??? It's open, supports most of the same things as flash. And it's xml. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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What with the recent talk over Longhorn and Avalon I thought you chaps might be interested in this; Sparkle, gunning for Flash Sparkle is the tool that will automate XAML application development. Said one source: Sparkle will let you create XAML and .Net applications." Now call me stupid but am I missing something? According to that, Sparkle is an IDE for XAML, much like you get the Flash IDE to create SWF files that are then embedded in a browser and run using the Flash plugin. So where is the Sparkle plugin? Have they just failed to mention it? Or will Sparkle just be something to whet our appetites and get devs up to speed with XAML in time for Longhorn with you only being able to view Avalon content from within the IDE? (Surely if you are going to be coding something you have to be able to run it!) Or will it only work on the Longhorn preview release, in which case forget all the above and return to your regularly scheduled broadcasting. More here I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Creating web UIs with code is a lot better than using drag and drop like Flash does. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
This is all 2D stuff right ? And you have to download the content to play it, so no streaming or progressive refinement of shapes, geometry, animation etc ?
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XAML will be used to build thick-client apps on Windows as well (not just web stuff). It's a description of the UI, with .NET code being hooked up behind the scenes by something along the lines of an interpreter (if its done at runtime) or a code generator (if its done at compile time). In addition, straight .NET code can be used to create anything XAML can describe, if you don't want to use XAML. Any .NET class that has a default constructor and settable properties can be hooked up in XAML. I'd assume that adding functionality like that to SVG would raise horrendous cries of "embrace & extend is evil!" from the anti MS folks... -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
that adding functionality like that to SVG would raise horrendous cries of "embrace & extend is evil!" from the anti MS folks... No it wouldn't if it was done right. There are (I beleive, it's been a while since I read the spec) ways to extend SVG built into the spec. If this was followed then no one would complain, at least not for those reasons. XAML will be used to build thick-client apps Blah, blah, blah. Sorry I'm just so sick of this. XAML is just wanking off and getting paid for it. There are pre-existing technologies that could have fit the bill quite well, but no, we have to re-invent the wheel. This is just classic NIH syndrome, IMHO. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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I stand considerably corrected. You are dead right. SVG coupled with all the other specific standards technologies can do all we need. But it needs more support. How many people can use a SVG doc? You need to download a multi megabyte viewer plugin and so far they are not good enough as the demand is not there. It is a pity. SVG with CSS 3, DOM 3 and XForms is going to rock. If they can just find some support in the broader world. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
But it needs more support Three cheers and can I get a Hallelujah from the choir! Dead right about that, and it's a pity that mozilla STILL does not have this built in (but it's coming Real Soon Now, don't you fret). If they can just find some support in the broader world Ahh, you mean the Microsoft world? Well that all depends on IE now doesn't it? And since no further development of IE is happening, well I gues we can kiss that off. Oh but hark, whats that you say dear Reader? There'll be a new version of IE in Longhorn? Right, I have to pay $300 to get an Browser up-grade? I think not. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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So is it really possible to *write* the clock found on Longhorns sidebar in entirely in SVG :confused:
My guess is yes. There are some really amzing things you can do with the spec if you have a good implementation. There is support for raster filters that can be extended, there's all sorts of cool things in SVG. It just needs a good implementation and authoring tools. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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What with the recent talk over Longhorn and Avalon I thought you chaps might be interested in this; Sparkle, gunning for Flash Sparkle is the tool that will automate XAML application development. Said one source: Sparkle will let you create XAML and .Net applications." Now call me stupid but am I missing something? According to that, Sparkle is an IDE for XAML, much like you get the Flash IDE to create SWF files that are then embedded in a browser and run using the Flash plugin. So where is the Sparkle plugin? Have they just failed to mention it? Or will Sparkle just be something to whet our appetites and get devs up to speed with XAML in time for Longhorn with you only being able to view Avalon content from within the IDE? (Surely if you are going to be coding something you have to be able to run it!) Or will it only work on the Longhorn preview release, in which case forget all the above and return to your regularly scheduled broadcasting. More here I personally will love a XML based competitor to Flash. Creating web UIs with code is a lot better than using drag and drop like Flash does. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
I have read blog posts from MS people who commented on this story, all they say is they want more people/partner developing apps for longhorn, so in which case if they start doing everything themselves there wont be any third party doing anything significant on longhorn. I read that Adobe was there with MS on some demos, so I guess there is lot of third party developing apps for longhorn. Anyway with XAML on longhorn it seems like there wont be any special significance for flash as the base OS offers so many goodies out of the box, it would be pretty easy to create some good looking dynamic content, all this only if macromedia doesnt do anything for the next two years. I'm sure they would think of something different for the new platform. Regards, Kannan
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that adding functionality like that to SVG would raise horrendous cries of "embrace & extend is evil!" from the anti MS folks... No it wouldn't if it was done right. There are (I beleive, it's been a while since I read the spec) ways to extend SVG built into the spec. If this was followed then no one would complain, at least not for those reasons. XAML will be used to build thick-client apps Blah, blah, blah. Sorry I'm just so sick of this. XAML is just wanking off and getting paid for it. There are pre-existing technologies that could have fit the bill quite well, but no, we have to re-invent the wheel. This is just classic NIH syndrome, IMHO. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Jim Crafton wrote: There are (I beleive, it's been a while since I read the spec) ways to extend SVG built into the spec. If this was followed then no one would complain, at least not for those reasons. I've got to claim ignorance on the SVG spec - I simply haven't read it. But unless MS didn't use .NET at all in 'extending' SVG, "SVG w/ Avalon extensions" wouldn't be able to run on a non-Longhorn platform any better than XAML. However, I think you're missing the point: XAML is the output of a GUI designer that essentially serves as input to a code generation tool. It's optional - anything you can describe in XAML you can hand code in [.NET bindable language here] by creating and manipulating the Avalon classes directly. XAML's just a description language built to describe Avalon GUIs. I highly doubt MS is going to tout XAML as cross platform in the same way that SVG and XUL are touted as cross-platform. They'll probably attempt to position it as a ASP.NET-ish way to be able to write GUIs on Longhorn and via any remote IE that's running on Longhorn. Time will only tell if that's a worthwhile proposition - they've failed miserably at the "thick client & web all in one" approach a number of times before. And frankly, I'm skeptical of the whole idea of using a web-browser as a remote GUI. Jim Crafton wrote: Blah, blah, blah. Sorry I'm just so sick of this. XAML is just wanking off and getting paid for it. There are pre-existing technologies that could have fit the bill quite well, but no, we have to re-invent the wheel. Could have fit the bill well enough? That's a pretty strong statement to be made about a product/feature that's well over a year away and whose specs haven't even been fully released... -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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But it needs more support Three cheers and can I get a Hallelujah from the choir! Dead right about that, and it's a pity that mozilla STILL does not have this built in (but it's coming Real Soon Now, don't you fret). If they can just find some support in the broader world Ahh, you mean the Microsoft world? Well that all depends on IE now doesn't it? And since no further development of IE is happening, well I gues we can kiss that off. Oh but hark, whats that you say dear Reader? There'll be a new version of IE in Longhorn? Right, I have to pay $300 to get an Browser up-grade? I think not. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
>And since no further development of IE is happening, well I gues we can kiss that off. Farking ridiculous. Mozilla is nice and all, but it is geek bound and going to stay that way for a good long time. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
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>And since no further development of IE is happening, well I gues we can kiss that off. Farking ridiculous. Mozilla is nice and all, but it is geek bound and going to stay that way for a good long time. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?
Mozilla is nice and all, but it is geek bound and going to stay that way for a good long time Yeah I am afraid you're right here. Kind of sad, but such is life. Even the name is stupid. This hit home as I was explaining to some co workers (non computer geeks) who were complaining about popups and other IE madness, and I suggested they try mozilla. A quick rundown of what it would do got them excited but when I had to repeat the name, I started to realize how silly it must sound (the looks on their faces reinforced this). And that seems pretty prevalent with all the OSS stuff, software full of really dumb names that are nothing but inside jokes to a few people in the know. And it's embarassing when you have to reccomment it. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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Mozilla is nice and all, but it is geek bound and going to stay that way for a good long time Yeah I am afraid you're right here. Kind of sad, but such is life. Even the name is stupid. This hit home as I was explaining to some co workers (non computer geeks) who were complaining about popups and other IE madness, and I suggested they try mozilla. A quick rundown of what it would do got them excited but when I had to repeat the name, I started to realize how silly it must sound (the looks on their faces reinforced this). And that seems pretty prevalent with all the OSS stuff, software full of really dumb names that are nothing but inside jokes to a few people in the know. And it's embarassing when you have to reccomment it. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Indeed. The whole zilla craze is such a joke. Mozilla, Filezilla, Go!Zilla, Web-Zilla etc. etc. Also the whole what is Mozilla (Gecko, Firebird, Thunderbird, Phoenix etc. etc. etc.) thing has done them damage. I use Firebird and it is hard to explain to even some programmers that it is related to Mozilla and uses the Gecko engine. They then ask what Mozilla is. Well, it is a suite of apps, browser, email, IM etc. I am glad to read that Mozilla are now realising the importance of their brand and focusing it. Long way to go to get onto every desktop though. It is actually a pretty dismal coming decade for web-development I reckon. We are going to be locked on IE6 for at least 5 years before anything notable changes in the broader sense. IE6 is already showing problems. We are so teased by Mozilla, but unable to use some of the awesome tech. because our actual users are all using IE6. And as you so rightly put it, trying to get people to switch by telling them to use an app that sounds like a giant green lizard is not helpful. Firebird is better, but just try selling minimalism. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?