Computer Science
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
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I have a degree in CS, and It's not a degree in Programming. CS did not show me how to design large scale applications or how to handle exceptions and any other STL hacks ... my "study" showed me the theory of CS and not really the practical aspect of CS. We studied the bases of CS, language theory, theorical stuff ( complexity ), basic Software engineering, AI theory, DB theory, math ( stats, probs, ... ), a bit of hardware theory. most of these classes were in the 2 first years ... ... get the picture ... but we also had programming classes, very, very basic, and were closelly bounded to the theorical classes, we used languages like prolog, Miranda ( functionnal programming ), Simula, Pascal, and more specific stuff like VHDL (hardware simulation). But most of these programming classes were in the 3rd year ... For some, it's a flaw, for some others, it's an advantage ... FYI, that was at "Universite de Montreal" ,and most "programmers" quit before the 2nd year started because it was to theorical ... and not enough practical ... Max. P.S. I don't think the goal of "higher study" is to show you how to program, but it's more to show you how things work, and how you can get the information and resources to do your programming tasks.
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I have often thought of going and doing a theology ... Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. or cosmology degree Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. I don't want to appear pendantic once again but I will :-). Christian expouses a certain brand of Christian beliefs and theology. But true theology encompasses other faiths and religeons as well. "or cosmology degree" Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? I'd like that, although true Cosmology utilises 3 requisite sciences, Physics, Astronomy, and Theology. (a bit of adevanced Math does no harm either) It is interesting to note that to study Christian theology 3 centuries ago you had to first study Physics. The mentality being how could you study the c metaphysical world without understanding the common world. But since Physics and theology have drifted to being poles apart. The guts of it Christian Theology couldn't alter its tenaments fast enough to keep up with science. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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When you are trying to get your resume on someone's desk, experience doesn't mean anything during a downturn. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
I disagree - it depends on the company you're applying to. I know for a fact my company will look for relevant experience rather than formal qualifications because I'm one of the interviewers. ;) In our case, the formal stuff might as well not be there as far as we're are concerned (that goes for professional qualifications too) - we look for experience and the ability to work flexibly and productively within a team above anything else. The rest is frankly not relevant to us. But as I say, every company is different. Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
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"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
I've been coding since 12 years old when my Father took a Microbee (Australian) computer home from work and I got to play around with that in Logo. Then I got my own and learn't Basic, at 13 had a program published in a magazine that produced a random maze. Since then programming for fun until 18 when I went to University to study Computer Science, and yes - I belive the ideas they teach are very useful, and every programmer should go to University, but its best to have programmed before University. Generally speaking, but not always true, those people who never programmed before university didn't get the intuitive feel for code but could produce it anyway. So while they can produce code, the code that is produced is often bloated and over engineered. People don't seem to realise that for every line of code produced your going to have to go back and change it later, if you produce 600,000 lines of code in a project, it becomes near impossible to change. It seems attractive to some people to produce a large amount of code as it seems like a lot of work is getting done. I see code as a lever, the smaller it is to get the job done the better. Basically coding has to be a part of you, you have to live it, however you get to that state doesn't really matter. Philip
Couldn't agree more with you, Philip. I used to program in BASIC at 14 and learned many things before going to degree program that even most of the final year students didn't know. I have a 4 year bachelors degree in Computer Systems Engineering and like Jon Sagara said "I get the best of both worlds - hardware and software." Kudos to Jon. My experience with people with/with out CS degree has been mixed. I have seen really morons with CS degree and really talented programmers with out a CS degree. But then I know few people with out CS who lake very basics specially a guy who is a Mechanical Engineer and he does progamming to such an extent that he can write 1000's of lines of code a day but actually only 10 lines are worth mentioning. I also like your analogy of code with lever :laugh: :) ;) ;P :-D :cool: Farhan Noor Qureshi
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Degrees are probably necessary for getting in the door at job interviews, but they lack real world value because the entire theory behind computer science is twisted! The problem is that the analogies for progamming are 'construction / engineering / architecture' - CS tries to teach programming as if it was a form of plumbing, or a variation of building construction. I have always felt that programming has much more in common with book writing - I think 'software author' is much more accurate than 'software engineer'. Why? Because a book author has to concieve of an end goal (plot), then work out the actors (objects) and their interactions in general, divide the overall work into subsections (chapters), then fill in the details (interfaces and message passing), whilst retaining the overall consistency required to produce the whole product. Good authors and good programmers have a lot in common. Good programmers and good engineers probably have a common set of basic maths skills, but the skill sets can vary widely from there on. ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? Absolutely not. The company I CO-OPed for (CO-OP = paid intern, working every other semester) was an MES software development firm. Of the 10 or so developers there, I was one of two who had a formal CS degree. The others all had Electrical or Mechanical engineering degrees. I think that the sole requirement for becoming a good programmer is simply the ability to think in logical steps. Any manner of intelligent person can do this - regardless of their formal training. (just think of how many highschool kids are doing real programming these days in their spare time) That being said, a formal CS degree will make a good programmer better. But, it will not make an crappy programmer into a good programmer. Problem analysis and solution design are very creative at their core, and creativity and inventiveness simply cannot be taught - they can only be cultivated in someone who already possesses them. I think that applies to any other field besides CS as well. A good programmer would probably be a good engineer (pick your flavor), architect, mathematician, physicist, cherry picker, farmer, or any other profession that they are interested in. -- Russell Morris Georgia Institute of Technology "WOW! Chocolate - half price!" - Homer Simpson, while in the land of chocolate.
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Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. I don't want to appear pendantic once again but I will :-). Christian expouses a certain brand of Christian beliefs and theology. But true theology encompasses other faiths and religeons as well. "or cosmology degree" Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? I'd like that, although true Cosmology utilises 3 requisite sciences, Physics, Astronomy, and Theology. (a bit of adevanced Math does no harm either) It is interesting to note that to study Christian theology 3 centuries ago you had to first study Physics. The mentality being how could you study the c metaphysical world without understanding the common world. But since Physics and theology have drifted to being poles apart. The guts of it Christian Theology couldn't alter its tenaments fast enough to keep up with science. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
I don't want to appear pendantic once again but I will Colin, I'd be disappointed with anything less from you ;P Christian expouses a certain brand of Christian beliefs and theology. But true theology encompasses other faiths and religeons as well Absolutely - I wasn't entirely (or even semi) serious! In fact (stop reading now, Christian), I think Christian offers a particularly narrow view of his own branch of religion (his choice, of course!). Fortunately for him, he happens to be following the 'correct' branch of Christianity - bad news for the vast majority of Italians, however! ...although true Cosmology utilises 3 requisite sciences, Physics, Astronomy, and Theology I'm sure Chris would be prepared to do the necessary research before preparing a short summary for the rest of us. :laugh: But since Physics and theology have drifted to being poles apart. The guts of it Christian Theology couldn't alter its tenaments fast enough to keep up with science. And the unfortunate side effect of this has been the rise of Creationism - but I'll leave it to John Fisher to flog that dead horse :( ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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i know a lot of useful things about CS that people who didn't get degrees in CS don't know. Such as? any specific suggestion? ..so that non-CS'ers can do a catch-up? // Fazlul
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In my CS classes, i was exposed to a wide range of programming languages (Pascal, Modula-2, Fortran, C, Smalltalk, Forth, Para-C, Lisp, Icon, Occam, Assembly, plenty more). And, while I don't remember the syntax for most of those, it did broaden my knowledge of what a language can do; ie. there's more to life than C++ and VB. as with human languages, knowing many languages can give you a better appreciation for any particular language. Learn about low level operating systems concepts. It never hurts to know what's going on under the covers. Learn something about common data structures (stacks, linked lists, trees, etc.), common data manipulation techniques (hash tables, sorting, parsing, etc.), algorithmic efficiency ("big-O" notation). All of this is really only if you want to go beyond ordinary competence. I work with a bunch of people who don't know much about any of that stuff and they write perfectly fine. But if you want to go to the next level, beyond the common stuff, those are good places to start. -c
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I've been coding since 12 years old when my Father took a Microbee (Australian) computer home from work and I got to play around with that in Logo. Then I got my own and learn't Basic, at 13 had a program published in a magazine that produced a random maze. Since then programming for fun until 18 when I went to University to study Computer Science, and yes - I belive the ideas they teach are very useful, and every programmer should go to University, but its best to have programmed before University. Generally speaking, but not always true, those people who never programmed before university didn't get the intuitive feel for code but could produce it anyway. So while they can produce code, the code that is produced is often bloated and over engineered. People don't seem to realise that for every line of code produced your going to have to go back and change it later, if you produce 600,000 lines of code in a project, it becomes near impossible to change. It seems attractive to some people to produce a large amount of code as it seems like a lot of work is getting done. I see code as a lever, the smaller it is to get the job done the better. Basically coding has to be a part of you, you have to live it, however you get to that state doesn't really matter. Philip
Why do you need to have programmed before ? I did not, and I not too shabby at it right now... Does the argument stands for other careers ? I don't think that medical doctors did surgery before they went in medical school ? even minor surgery ? don't think so Er, except if you/they played doctor with next doors' girls when they were kids ( or even older ) ... I don't believe you need to be a freak to be a programmer, even a good one at that... I usually don't dream of code, I don't code outside of my work... Anyway, I'm going home now ... Max.
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Hmmm...in my company the developers do the interviewing. The managers generally defer to our gut feeling rather than what's on the CV. HR? We don't have such a thing. :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))in my company the developers do the interviewing HR? We don't have such a thing. As a general rule, the smaller the company, the less important (or existant) is HR - the opposite in larger companies. I work for a small company, the developers do the hiring, and we llok for ANYTHING (degree, experience, bribes) that can give us an indication that person 'x' has enough skill to justify an interview. My wife has worked in larger organisations, and the HR departments (which she ended up joining in one company!) definitely place a high initial value of formal qualifications. Degrees will rarely win you a job in a tight labor market, but the lack of one will make it that much narder to get to square one (the interview). ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
error in assignment. getting an interview is not of type DEGREE ;P
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I started programming a couple of years after leaving High School. Worked my way up from the bottom, boss sent me to some training with IBM in cohorts with some University for about 4 months. When I came back I was a recruit programmer. About 6 years later I started a Bachelor of information Technology by correspondance. I am almost 2/3 of the way through and I must get back to it next year or my credits will disappear. Kids and the death of my little sister 3 years ago put my studies on hold. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
If you're interested in input from an old timer, no you do not necessarily need a degree. I say, "not necessarily" because while a degree does not prove you can program, it does prove that you can stick to something long enough to finish it. I have been in this business since 1964. In that time I have worked on and / or played key roles in developing large, back office systems. Did a lot of consulting (some programming some real consulting). Also had my own software company for 11 years. In that time I have discovered that what really makes a good programmer (ok, this is my opinion) is: o An open and logical mind o No pride of authorship (so you can deal with constructive input) o A working knowledge of the industry you are supporting. o And obviously skill with a language and working environment (operating system +) o Desire (to program) The higher salaries go to those that specialize in a given industry because they can honestly bring technology to the table to solve business problems. Pure technicians can really bring in a high salary if they have current technology skills at the precise point in time that those skills are needed. These pure technicians can also reap huge rewards IF they somehow come up with the killer app - usually some sort of ground breaking utility. The most fun is to be had in small companies, which will typically not be big enough to have an HR Department as a gate keeper / initial screener. I have hired and worked with countless programmers and some of the absolute worst were college trained with CS or similar degrees. One of the very best was degreed in music (had a masters).
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That's one up on the profanity filter... ;P Do Yanks and Aussies even know what bollocks means? :laugh: Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))Of course we Aussies understand. We know all forms of profanity. Now Sod Off you whinging Pommie bastard. ;P Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I have no formal computer related education and I've survived 12 years in the industry. I'm not sure whether I'm a good programmer but none of the people I've worked for have had any complaints about my coding or design skills. (Some complaints about my attitude though :-) ) Michael :-)
I've got a B.Tech in Computer Science from one of my state's universities. B.Tech stands for Bachelor of Technology. It's not a big deal though. We have 1000s of B Tech people coming out annually [including a large number of Computer Science BTech and Electronics BTech guys]. A good number of them remain unemployed. Nish
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If you're interested in input from an old timer, no you do not necessarily need a degree. I say, "not necessarily" because while a degree does not prove you can program, it does prove that you can stick to something long enough to finish it. I have been in this business since 1964. In that time I have worked on and / or played key roles in developing large, back office systems. Did a lot of consulting (some programming some real consulting). Also had my own software company for 11 years. In that time I have discovered that what really makes a good programmer (ok, this is my opinion) is: o An open and logical mind o No pride of authorship (so you can deal with constructive input) o A working knowledge of the industry you are supporting. o And obviously skill with a language and working environment (operating system +) o Desire (to program) The higher salaries go to those that specialize in a given industry because they can honestly bring technology to the table to solve business problems. Pure technicians can really bring in a high salary if they have current technology skills at the precise point in time that those skills are needed. These pure technicians can also reap huge rewards IF they somehow come up with the killer app - usually some sort of ground breaking utility. The most fun is to be had in small companies, which will typically not be big enough to have an HR Department as a gate keeper / initial screener. I have hired and worked with countless programmers and some of the absolute worst were college trained with CS or similar degrees. One of the very best was degreed in music (had a masters).
This covers it all pretty well - couldn't agree more. The most fun is to be had in small companies... That's why I stick to the little guys. ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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Of course we Aussies understand. We know all forms of profanity. Now Sod Off you whinging Pommie bastard. ;P Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
LOL :laugh: Seems like Chris has tuned the filter to catch the Yanks then... :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
Sure is....but in my first job (I was a sponsored student in my final year) they didn't even bother asking whether I got the degree until I'd been there a couple of months... I suspect this varies from country to country. Is the US more hung up on this than the UK I wonder? Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))US might be more hung up on it, I don't know. What scares me is that everytime someone asks if they should get a degree, there is always someone saying no, "I got a job without one." The problem is that these people are the exception. It is much better to get the degree and be able to get your resume seen by many many more people. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
The five best, and most successful, programmers I have ever worked with had no degree of any kind. "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01
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The five best, and most successful, programmers I have ever worked with had no degree of any kind. "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01
The five best, and most successful, programmers I have ever worked with had no degree of any kind. But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages.. Are these two statements in any way connected ?:eek: :eek: ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------