Computer Science
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I've been coding since 12 years old when my Father took a Microbee (Australian) computer home from work and I got to play around with that in Logo. Then I got my own and learn't Basic, at 13 had a program published in a magazine that produced a random maze. Since then programming for fun until 18 when I went to University to study Computer Science, and yes - I belive the ideas they teach are very useful, and every programmer should go to University, but its best to have programmed before University. Generally speaking, but not always true, those people who never programmed before university didn't get the intuitive feel for code but could produce it anyway. So while they can produce code, the code that is produced is often bloated and over engineered. People don't seem to realise that for every line of code produced your going to have to go back and change it later, if you produce 600,000 lines of code in a project, it becomes near impossible to change. It seems attractive to some people to produce a large amount of code as it seems like a lot of work is getting done. I see code as a lever, the smaller it is to get the job done the better. Basically coding has to be a part of you, you have to live it, however you get to that state doesn't really matter. Philip
Why do you need to have programmed before ? I did not, and I not too shabby at it right now... Does the argument stands for other careers ? I don't think that medical doctors did surgery before they went in medical school ? even minor surgery ? don't think so Er, except if you/they played doctor with next doors' girls when they were kids ( or even older ) ... I don't believe you need to be a freak to be a programmer, even a good one at that... I usually don't dream of code, I don't code outside of my work... Anyway, I'm going home now ... Max.
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Hmmm...in my company the developers do the interviewing. The managers generally defer to our gut feeling rather than what's on the CV. HR? We don't have such a thing. :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
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"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))in my company the developers do the interviewing HR? We don't have such a thing. As a general rule, the smaller the company, the less important (or existant) is HR - the opposite in larger companies. I work for a small company, the developers do the hiring, and we llok for ANYTHING (degree, experience, bribes) that can give us an indication that person 'x' has enough skill to justify an interview. My wife has worked in larger organisations, and the HR departments (which she ended up joining in one company!) definitely place a high initial value of formal qualifications. Degrees will rarely win you a job in a tight labor market, but the lack of one will make it that much narder to get to square one (the interview). ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
error in assignment. getting an interview is not of type DEGREE ;P
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
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I started programming a couple of years after leaving High School. Worked my way up from the bottom, boss sent me to some training with IBM in cohorts with some University for about 4 months. When I came back I was a recruit programmer. About 6 years later I started a Bachelor of information Technology by correspondance. I am almost 2/3 of the way through and I must get back to it next year or my credits will disappear. Kids and the death of my little sister 3 years ago put my studies on hold. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
If you're interested in input from an old timer, no you do not necessarily need a degree. I say, "not necessarily" because while a degree does not prove you can program, it does prove that you can stick to something long enough to finish it. I have been in this business since 1964. In that time I have worked on and / or played key roles in developing large, back office systems. Did a lot of consulting (some programming some real consulting). Also had my own software company for 11 years. In that time I have discovered that what really makes a good programmer (ok, this is my opinion) is: o An open and logical mind o No pride of authorship (so you can deal with constructive input) o A working knowledge of the industry you are supporting. o And obviously skill with a language and working environment (operating system +) o Desire (to program) The higher salaries go to those that specialize in a given industry because they can honestly bring technology to the table to solve business problems. Pure technicians can really bring in a high salary if they have current technology skills at the precise point in time that those skills are needed. These pure technicians can also reap huge rewards IF they somehow come up with the killer app - usually some sort of ground breaking utility. The most fun is to be had in small companies, which will typically not be big enough to have an HR Department as a gate keeper / initial screener. I have hired and worked with countless programmers and some of the absolute worst were college trained with CS or similar degrees. One of the very best was degreed in music (had a masters).
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That's one up on the profanity filter... ;P Do Yanks and Aussies even know what bollocks means? :laugh: Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))Of course we Aussies understand. We know all forms of profanity. Now Sod Off you whinging Pommie bastard. ;P Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I have no formal computer related education and I've survived 12 years in the industry. I'm not sure whether I'm a good programmer but none of the people I've worked for have had any complaints about my coding or design skills. (Some complaints about my attitude though :-) ) Michael :-)
I've got a B.Tech in Computer Science from one of my state's universities. B.Tech stands for Bachelor of Technology. It's not a big deal though. We have 1000s of B Tech people coming out annually [including a large number of Computer Science BTech and Electronics BTech guys]. A good number of them remain unemployed. Nish
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If you're interested in input from an old timer, no you do not necessarily need a degree. I say, "not necessarily" because while a degree does not prove you can program, it does prove that you can stick to something long enough to finish it. I have been in this business since 1964. In that time I have worked on and / or played key roles in developing large, back office systems. Did a lot of consulting (some programming some real consulting). Also had my own software company for 11 years. In that time I have discovered that what really makes a good programmer (ok, this is my opinion) is: o An open and logical mind o No pride of authorship (so you can deal with constructive input) o A working knowledge of the industry you are supporting. o And obviously skill with a language and working environment (operating system +) o Desire (to program) The higher salaries go to those that specialize in a given industry because they can honestly bring technology to the table to solve business problems. Pure technicians can really bring in a high salary if they have current technology skills at the precise point in time that those skills are needed. These pure technicians can also reap huge rewards IF they somehow come up with the killer app - usually some sort of ground breaking utility. The most fun is to be had in small companies, which will typically not be big enough to have an HR Department as a gate keeper / initial screener. I have hired and worked with countless programmers and some of the absolute worst were college trained with CS or similar degrees. One of the very best was degreed in music (had a masters).
This covers it all pretty well - couldn't agree more. The most fun is to be had in small companies... That's why I stick to the little guys. ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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Of course we Aussies understand. We know all forms of profanity. Now Sod Off you whinging Pommie bastard. ;P Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
LOL :laugh: Seems like Chris has tuned the filter to catch the Yanks then... :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
Sure is....but in my first job (I was a sponsored student in my final year) they didn't even bother asking whether I got the degree until I'd been there a couple of months... I suspect this varies from country to country. Is the US more hung up on this than the UK I wonder? Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))US might be more hung up on it, I don't know. What scares me is that everytime someone asks if they should get a degree, there is always someone saying no, "I got a job without one." The problem is that these people are the exception. It is much better to get the degree and be able to get your resume seen by many many more people. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
The five best, and most successful, programmers I have ever worked with had no degree of any kind. "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01
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The five best, and most successful, programmers I have ever worked with had no degree of any kind. "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01
The five best, and most successful, programmers I have ever worked with had no degree of any kind. But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages.. Are these two statements in any way connected ?:eek: :eek: ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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The five best, and most successful, programmers I have ever worked with had no degree of any kind. But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages.. Are these two statements in any way connected ?:eek: :eek: ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
Well, now that you mention it, all five probably would have gotten a degree if they had not spent so much time partying back in the hippie ages. Of course, the absolute *best* programmer I have ever met does have a degree. (Me) :) "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I have a degree in Computer Science and found that it opened doors for me as far as getting the interview. However, my degree (which was a few years ago) focused on obscure languages like Pascal. I took classes in Artificial Intelligence (using Lisp) and Object Oriented Programming (using Smalltalk). Where are these languages now? I found that the degree helped my design skills, but the languages I use today were not taught in school. I think my school focused on trying to teach the concepts, and they figured that people will have to learn the appropriate language on their own. It's a shame because at the time, Windows development was pure SDK style, and it took a while to learn on my own. I kind of wish now that they had a class in Windows development, but no use crying over spilt milk. Apparently, the school now has classes that focus on languages that are current. They use Java for their Introduction to Computer Science courses now (I guess pointers were too complicated for first timers to understand) :) Brigg Thorp Software Engineer Timex Corporation