Google Ads - let's clear the air
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It's pretty freakin' sad that people can take this site and it's proprietor(s) for granted and think that just because they come here and browse around and maybe contribute that they can run the show. Marc, Anders, Jeremy, tell me, do you let your customers set prices for your products? If they don't want to pay that price what do you tell them? Probably to go jump in a lake! CodeProject is like any other business - Chris and his team have to pay for the bandwidth, the servers, the salaries, etc. If you want to pull your articles, then go ahead and be jerks about it, but it would be nice for once to see you be a little more appreciative and maybe give Chris a chance to improve things before splashing your whining, baby talk all over the Lounge. Maybe some reasonable suggestions would be good. BTW Marc, you can't tell me that the free publicity you have gotten from the site hasn't helped your career. Maybe not monetarily, but I've seen a few articles about you and your MyXAML and I doubt if you would get as many free eyes anywhere else. Your lucky Chris doesn't charge you for it. Chris, I can't say I like ads, but they don't bother me all that much either. CP is still the best programming site around. Don't let the critics get you down. There are thousands more that appreciate what you've done.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJeremy's response says it all, IMO. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
I don't see what everyone is complaining about. The only reason I noticed them was the clashing header/border around them...
// Steve McLenithan
Who is remote client and what has he done with my VPN connection?
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Chris Maunder wrote: What if the ads were placed elsewhere? Hmmm. Well, then I have to make a personal decision. If the relevancy kicks in better, and say, some of my articles result in ads to, say, Xamlon, the I will most likely have to pull those articles, because I don't want to endorse their product. That's my personal choice though, I guess, but it means that the rest of CP community doesn't get to benefit. I don't know if other authors agree with my reasoning or not, but that's my personal reason. The Xamlon issue is just a very specific case of my displeasure with the general problem of advertising something without my approval. And that's the thing--by posting articles on CP, I am saying "I approve of the ads that are on CP". I don't approve of the targeted ads. Chris Maunder wrote: We're doing our best, Marc. Pleae give us the benefit of the doubt, and please give us a chance. No problem. :) It isn't easy trying to make CP work, is it? Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
Just curious.. What would you do if Xamlon bought banner adds on the site? Also... You can actually target your own Google adds specifically for your articles now. How do people deal with articles and banner ads that conflict now. For instance the various free charting controls and dundas. Is Dundas pressuring the site to limit the quality of charting control articles on the site? I think the conflict of interest is always going to be there as long as you have advertisements and articles. Personally I don't have a problem with the google ads or any of the ads since I understand the costs and I think the site is great, plus I just tune most of them out.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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Well, speaking for myself: Chris Maunder wrote: Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? No. CP is great. What makes it great is, IMO, a sense of doing things right. Chris Maunder wrote: The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? For me, absolutely. The banner ads are generic, and companies pay for them. The google ads are specific. Companies pay google, not me. I feel like my article content is providing free advertising to people that I don't know, products that I may not endorse, and competitors that I'd rather not see. (Now, the last part, about competition, yes, that's a double edged sword--it can be argued that I shouldn't be using CP to advertise my own projects, open source or not. But the other two points are still valid). Chris Maunder wrote: The fact that it's Google? Nope. Google is great. In fact I pay for my own ad on Google. Chris Maunder wrote: The fact that we make money off advertising? Nope. I'd hate for CP to go away because it can't afford to provide the great service it does. But there were some other really great ideas--a subscription fee for ad-free browsing. A donate button (I'd donate, monthly!) Chris Maunder wrote: We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. I looked at a couple of my articles on vector graphics, XAML, etc. The ads were totally irrelevant. I know for a fact that Xamlon and VG.net both key off of XAML, MyXaml, and VG.net. Yet none of them showed up. Type XAML in Google, and Xamlon is the top ad. But it's not in the ad box on the article. Going back to the competition thing--I write articles that are solutions to problems, and I'd like people to use those solutions. In fact, I'd like them to provide feedback to me regarding how they changed them, and so forth. Providing the google ads on the article, keyed to the content (regardless of accuracy), is like saying to me "thanks for providing a bunch of words for free that we can use to link to someone's product and generate revenue off of." I am not a happy camper about that. Linking to other relevant CP articles is cool! Sure, the google ads is a service. It's not a service I am going to endorse. Ironically, it's probably a good service, because as we all know, some people simply don't know how to use Google. Marc Microso
Genuinely curious, not implying anything, not trying to get your back up, not lashing out, not even typing this but, why do you post articles on CP? >a subscription fee for ad-free browsing That won't help your objection to the Google ads. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Ian Darling wrote: "and our loonies usually end up doing things like Monty Python." Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Very, very different situation Jeremy. While Zafir and I ran CodeGuru it was as simple as we could keep it. He decided enough was enough, sold it lock, stock and barrel, and EarthWeb did their magic. Because of that experience - in the realities and economics of running sites, in seeing someone simply give up after years of work because he'd had enough, and in seeing what unobstructed commercialism can do - I'm being very, very careful. Gimme some credit here. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Chris Maunder wrote: Gimme some credit here. Ok ok, you deserve more credit than I orginally gave you. Well, FWIW I'm glad I'm wrong. :) Jeremy Falcon
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Jason Henderson wrote: Marc, Anders, Jeremy, tell me, do you let your customers set prices for your products? Individually no, but in a whole you're damn sure I do (and everyone else too). It's the same way with MS, do you think they dropped the price of Office by accident or the free alternatives had something to do with it. If one of my customers had a problem, it's their problem. But, if 50% of them had a problem, it's my job to serve them. Quite frankly, too many people nowadays don't focus on the customer. And, it's disgusting the attitude that some accept now because of that. Jason Henderson wrote: before splashing your whining, baby talk all over the Lounge Like you wouldn't complain on something you felt cheated out of. Whether right or wrong, wether you agree with it or not, everyone complains from time to time. Now, why don't you grow up and stop with the insults? Jason Henderson wrote: Maybe some reasonable suggestions would be good. Ok, I agree with you there. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Individually no, but in a whole you're damn sure I do (and everyone else too). It's the same way with MS, do you think they dropped the price of Office by accident or the free alternatives had something to do with it. If one of my customers had a problem, it's their problem. But, if 50% of them had a problem, it's my job to serve them. Quite frankly, too many people nowadays don't focus on the customer. And, it's disgusting the attitude that some accept now because of that. What are you paying CodeProject to let you post messages and articles besides your time? Jeremy Falcon wrote: Like you wouldn't complain on something you felt cheated out of. Whether right or wrong, wether you agree with it or not, everyone complains from time to time. Now, why don't you grow up and stop with the insults? Truthfully, I'm not much of a complainer. I will state my grievances, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before screaming bloody murder at the top of my lungs. Sorry if you were insulted, but whining over piddly stuff like this sets me off.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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>And oh yeah, please don't put ads on the printer friendly pages. It would make them less printer friendly Oh come on Jorgen! What about adverts for a better printer? :P regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Ian Darling wrote: "and our loonies usually end up doing things like Monty Python." Crikey! ain't life grand?
"If you can't read this ad, then it's time to buy a new printer." :) -- Ich bin Joachim von Hassel, und ich bin Pilot der Bundeswehr. Welle: Erdball - F104-G Starfighter
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I just dislike ads in general. On my slow connection it takes a while to load them. Some times, I will lose my connection, and I will be unable to view posts that are already loaded because the browser wants to refresh an ad that it can't find. I know that you need them for revenue, and that we have to live with them for that reason. Being a hobby programmer, I can not justify buying the latest and greatest development tools from the CP store, so that is not a way that I can support the site. But I really would like to make a small monthly donation as I have learned so much from the articles here.
[
](http://www.canucks.com)Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
Then you should like these better than the old ads you're already downloading: AdWords (google's advertising service) are completely text-based. You might want to check out an example on an article.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
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Chris Maunder wrote: What if the ads were placed elsewhere? Hmmm. Well, then I have to make a personal decision. If the relevancy kicks in better, and say, some of my articles result in ads to, say, Xamlon, the I will most likely have to pull those articles, because I don't want to endorse their product. That's my personal choice though, I guess, but it means that the rest of CP community doesn't get to benefit. I don't know if other authors agree with my reasoning or not, but that's my personal reason. The Xamlon issue is just a very specific case of my displeasure with the general problem of advertising something without my approval. And that's the thing--by posting articles on CP, I am saying "I approve of the ads that are on CP". I don't approve of the targeted ads. Chris Maunder wrote: We're doing our best, Marc. Pleae give us the benefit of the doubt, and please give us a chance. No problem. :) It isn't easy trying to make CP work, is it? Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
Marc Clifton wrote: And that's the thing--by posting articles on CP, I am saying "I approve of the ads that are on CP". I don't approve of the targeted ads. But what if Xamlon approached us like any other advertiser and said "I want to buy some banners" and they appeared on your article's pages? What if Xamlon posted a free version of their product with code and you bought ads that appeared on their pages? CodeProject is for sharing code. For Free. It was never designed to be a place where developers could freely promote third party products. If this is possible for them and achievable in a way that's sympathetic to the ideal of sharing and teaching then we have no problem with it, but it will always take a back seat to the basic premise of allowing developers who could otherwise not afford components or training to freely get the resources they need in their day to day job. If someone advertises a product that competes with your article then the idea is that the advertised product is actually at a disadvantage because it's competing with something that's free. I get the feeling you are worried that posting your code on CodeProject will expose it to the competition of those who have paid for advertising. The more exposure you get the more you will facing competing forces. All I can say is that your articles will always stand up on their own, regardless of ads that appear alongside, and that click through rates for online advertising in IT is very low. Let's say 1 in a hundred developers click on an ad that's for a competing product to your article. That's still 99 developers who read your article and didn't click. And we have 1.3 million developers a month coming through here. That's a lot of developers sticking with you, and not the competition. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
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Chris Maunder wrote: Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? That's my vote. Chris Maunder wrote: We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. Most of the advertising is somewhat relevant anyway. It's for developers and we're developers. But, if you want to take the Google extreme fine, just keep the ads out of the articles and rotate them with the regular ads or something. I don't know about the other article writers, but for me all these ads make me feel as if my efforts are being used for your financial benefit (whether it be by toys, trips, or money). And, I can't imagine many people being motivated by that to write more articles with that in mind. Like I said before, maybe I'm wrong about what goes under the hood in CP, but that's the impression I get. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: but for me all these ads make me feel as if my efforts are being used for your financial benefit They are, and I think rightly so. Chris et al deserve to be paid for their efforts. Without direct, full financial support from a) subscribers or b) Microsoft, c) advertising is pretty much all that's left. Jeremy Falcon wrote: And, I can't imagine many people being motivated by that to write more articles with that in mind Sharing with the community of devs is what should motivate people to write articles (and is what I think motivates contributers to Code Project). Do you believe that the knowledge that their articles will be displayed alongside targeted ads will de-motivate article writers? I can understand the knee-jerk reaction that 'hey - I wrote that! Why are trying to make money off of it?' in general. However, that reaction just doesn't make much sense in a free-for-all site like Code Project. If you're a good article writer, there are plenty of developers who have gained financially directly or indirectly from your articles. Does that make you cringe? -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Matt Newman wrote: I use google ads on my own website. Yes, but that is YOUR choice. I have some 50 articles now with someone else's products being advertised that I don't even endorse, sitting there in the MY article content. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
I hate to argue with you of all people, Marc, but the AdWords are in a section at the bottom of your article AFTER your profile where there was links to similar articles already. It's not technically in your article content and - as I said - there was already links to similar articles that you probably didn't endorse as well.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
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Jeremy's response says it all, IMO. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
I read your reply about google ads after writing my message, and most of it made sense. However, I'm not sure if your intentions for writing articles aren't for your own benefit rather than for the benefit of the community/CP as you sometimes claim. Don't get me wrong, if you write articles to help yourself, then that's fine, just don't feed us a line about posting articles for the benefit of others and wanting to improve CP if that's the case.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
I don't have problem with advertisement on codeproject. It is the best site with lot of great articles and it is very usefull for me. I'm not sure if I would pay (or how many) for accessing to CP. So IMHO it is better to have more advertisement than payed access. I only don't like design of google ads. It looks less profesional than other ads and it disturbs design of bottom of page, but I'm sure that little change of design - so it would look like links in left part (related articles), or at least more orange and less gray color can make it better. Anyway I will not leave codeproject, as long as there will be good articles and usefull discussions. (I'm more reader of articles than writer, but articles, that I wrote for CP gave me a lot and even great job for time of my study :))
Tomáš Petříček
www.eeeksoft.net | Photos | Fractal Snow -
OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Frankly, I don't mind them at all. You are running a business, whether people like it or not (you always get those anti-establishment people, don't you?), and everything requires money to run. While I don't have a problem with them, might I recommend a service (like for people like Marc) where authors can pay instead of having AdWords added to their articles? This would be similar in nature to /. moving to a subscription a while back where you get ads intermitently throughout the message board unless you pay a subscription fee to offset the cost (also based on impressions, but you wouldn't have to and could just go with a flat rate...much easier to program! ;)). Would I pay for them? Maybe, but not because I dislike the targetted advertisement...just because. Would someone like Marc? I'm betting they would (if the price was fair). Just a guess, though.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Individually no, but in a whole you're damn sure I do (and everyone else too). It's the same way with MS, do you think they dropped the price of Office by accident or the free alternatives had something to do with it. If one of my customers had a problem, it's their problem. But, if 50% of them had a problem, it's my job to serve them. Quite frankly, too many people nowadays don't focus on the customer. And, it's disgusting the attitude that some accept now because of that. What are you paying CodeProject to let you post messages and articles besides your time? Jeremy Falcon wrote: Like you wouldn't complain on something you felt cheated out of. Whether right or wrong, wether you agree with it or not, everyone complains from time to time. Now, why don't you grow up and stop with the insults? Truthfully, I'm not much of a complainer. I will state my grievances, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before screaming bloody murder at the top of my lungs. Sorry if you were insulted, but whining over piddly stuff like this sets me off.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: What are you paying CodeProject to let you post messages and articles besides your time? You've got it all backwards. It's because of the articles that ppl visist this site. Do you think 1.1 million developers would've registered for a site with no content? Jason Henderson wrote: but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before screaming bloody murder at the top of my lungs. That's one thing I don't understand about you people. Why in the hell do you assume I'm screaming bloody murder all the time? Is it because I'm blunt? Jason Henderson wrote: but whining over piddly stuff like this sets me off. Piddly in your eyes maybe. Which just goes to proving my point. Jeremy Falcon
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jdunlap wrote: However, I really think that you should pursue the idea of donations/optional subscriptions Personally I think this idea isn't that great. For better or worse "Donation" links make a site look unprofessional (At least to me).
Kluch wrote: Personally I think this idea isn't that great. For better or worse "Donation" links make a site look unprofessional (At least to me). The typical 'help me - I don't get a check in the mail for writing this free stuff!' donation links do look unprofessional. However, that doesn't mean that's the only way to set something up. For instance, the EFF accepts donations. So do just about all of the non-governmental public action groups. I don't think many would consider them unprofessional, and I think that CodeProject could set up a donation system that was just as tasteful while still being, at it's heart, a donation system. -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: but for me all these ads make me feel as if my efforts are being used for your financial benefit They are, and I think rightly so. Chris et al deserve to be paid for their efforts. Without direct, full financial support from a) subscribers or b) Microsoft, c) advertising is pretty much all that's left. Jeremy Falcon wrote: And, I can't imagine many people being motivated by that to write more articles with that in mind Sharing with the community of devs is what should motivate people to write articles (and is what I think motivates contributers to Code Project). Do you believe that the knowledge that their articles will be displayed alongside targeted ads will de-motivate article writers? I can understand the knee-jerk reaction that 'hey - I wrote that! Why are trying to make money off of it?' in general. However, that reaction just doesn't make much sense in a free-for-all site like Code Project. If you're a good article writer, there are plenty of developers who have gained financially directly or indirectly from your articles. Does that make you cringe? -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
Russell Morris wrote: If you're a good article writer, there are plenty of developers who have gained financially directly or indirectly from your articles. Good point. Hey, quit mixing reason and logic with this!!!!! ;P Jeremy Falcon
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Ads? what ads? cant see one, oh! on the left side, never looked that side untill now.
I'll write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill - Dire Straits
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Jason Henderson wrote: What are you paying CodeProject to let you post messages and articles besides your time? You've got it all backwards. It's because of the articles that ppl visist this site. Do you think 1.1 million developers would've registered for a site with no content? Jason Henderson wrote: but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before screaming bloody murder at the top of my lungs. That's one thing I don't understand about you people. Why in the hell do you assume I'm screaming bloody murder all the time? Is it because I'm blunt? Jason Henderson wrote: but whining over piddly stuff like this sets me off. Piddly in your eyes maybe. Which just goes to proving my point. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: You've got it all backwards. It's because of the articles that ppl visist this site. Do you think 1.1 million developers would've registered for a site with no content? Do you think a site with 1.1 million developers and no fees will make money? Jeremy Falcon wrote: That's one thing I don't understand about you people. Why in the hell do you assume I'm screaming bloody murder all the time? Is it because I'm blunt? Um, maybe. Okay, yeah. Jeremy Falcon wrote: Piddly in your eyes maybe. Which just goes to proving my point. You need to learn to see the bigger picture I guess.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
Frankly, I don't mind them at all. You are running a business, whether people like it or not (you always get those anti-establishment people, don't you?), and everything requires money to run. While I don't have a problem with them, might I recommend a service (like for people like Marc) where authors can pay instead of having AdWords added to their articles? This would be similar in nature to /. moving to a subscription a while back where you get ads intermitently throughout the message board unless you pay a subscription fee to offset the cost (also based on impressions, but you wouldn't have to and could just go with a flat rate...much easier to program! ;)). Would I pay for them? Maybe, but not because I dislike the targetted advertisement...just because. Would someone like Marc? I'm betting they would (if the price was fair). Just a guess, though.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
Perhaps instead of the AdWords an author could opt to put a relevant link to a website and the author could be billed by the click? Just an idea.
