Google Ads - let's clear the air
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Chris Maunder wrote: Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? That's my vote. Chris Maunder wrote: We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. Most of the advertising is somewhat relevant anyway. It's for developers and we're developers. But, if you want to take the Google extreme fine, just keep the ads out of the articles and rotate them with the regular ads or something. I don't know about the other article writers, but for me all these ads make me feel as if my efforts are being used for your financial benefit (whether it be by toys, trips, or money). And, I can't imagine many people being motivated by that to write more articles with that in mind. Like I said before, maybe I'm wrong about what goes under the hood in CP, but that's the impression I get. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: but for me all these ads make me feel as if my efforts are being used for your financial benefit They are, and I think rightly so. Chris et al deserve to be paid for their efforts. Without direct, full financial support from a) subscribers or b) Microsoft, c) advertising is pretty much all that's left. Jeremy Falcon wrote: And, I can't imagine many people being motivated by that to write more articles with that in mind Sharing with the community of devs is what should motivate people to write articles (and is what I think motivates contributers to Code Project). Do you believe that the knowledge that their articles will be displayed alongside targeted ads will de-motivate article writers? I can understand the knee-jerk reaction that 'hey - I wrote that! Why are trying to make money off of it?' in general. However, that reaction just doesn't make much sense in a free-for-all site like Code Project. If you're a good article writer, there are plenty of developers who have gained financially directly or indirectly from your articles. Does that make you cringe? -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Matt Newman wrote: I use google ads on my own website. Yes, but that is YOUR choice. I have some 50 articles now with someone else's products being advertised that I don't even endorse, sitting there in the MY article content. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
I hate to argue with you of all people, Marc, but the AdWords are in a section at the bottom of your article AFTER your profile where there was links to similar articles already. It's not technically in your article content and - as I said - there was already links to similar articles that you probably didn't endorse as well.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
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Jeremy's response says it all, IMO. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
I read your reply about google ads after writing my message, and most of it made sense. However, I'm not sure if your intentions for writing articles aren't for your own benefit rather than for the benefit of the community/CP as you sometimes claim. Don't get me wrong, if you write articles to help yourself, then that's fine, just don't feed us a line about posting articles for the benefit of others and wanting to improve CP if that's the case.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
I don't have problem with advertisement on codeproject. It is the best site with lot of great articles and it is very usefull for me. I'm not sure if I would pay (or how many) for accessing to CP. So IMHO it is better to have more advertisement than payed access. I only don't like design of google ads. It looks less profesional than other ads and it disturbs design of bottom of page, but I'm sure that little change of design - so it would look like links in left part (related articles), or at least more orange and less gray color can make it better. Anyway I will not leave codeproject, as long as there will be good articles and usefull discussions. (I'm more reader of articles than writer, but articles, that I wrote for CP gave me a lot and even great job for time of my study :))
Tomáš Petříček
www.eeeksoft.net | Photos | Fractal Snow -
OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Frankly, I don't mind them at all. You are running a business, whether people like it or not (you always get those anti-establishment people, don't you?), and everything requires money to run. While I don't have a problem with them, might I recommend a service (like for people like Marc) where authors can pay instead of having AdWords added to their articles? This would be similar in nature to /. moving to a subscription a while back where you get ads intermitently throughout the message board unless you pay a subscription fee to offset the cost (also based on impressions, but you wouldn't have to and could just go with a flat rate...much easier to program! ;)). Would I pay for them? Maybe, but not because I dislike the targetted advertisement...just because. Would someone like Marc? I'm betting they would (if the price was fair). Just a guess, though.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Individually no, but in a whole you're damn sure I do (and everyone else too). It's the same way with MS, do you think they dropped the price of Office by accident or the free alternatives had something to do with it. If one of my customers had a problem, it's their problem. But, if 50% of them had a problem, it's my job to serve them. Quite frankly, too many people nowadays don't focus on the customer. And, it's disgusting the attitude that some accept now because of that. What are you paying CodeProject to let you post messages and articles besides your time? Jeremy Falcon wrote: Like you wouldn't complain on something you felt cheated out of. Whether right or wrong, wether you agree with it or not, everyone complains from time to time. Now, why don't you grow up and stop with the insults? Truthfully, I'm not much of a complainer. I will state my grievances, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before screaming bloody murder at the top of my lungs. Sorry if you were insulted, but whining over piddly stuff like this sets me off.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: What are you paying CodeProject to let you post messages and articles besides your time? You've got it all backwards. It's because of the articles that ppl visist this site. Do you think 1.1 million developers would've registered for a site with no content? Jason Henderson wrote: but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before screaming bloody murder at the top of my lungs. That's one thing I don't understand about you people. Why in the hell do you assume I'm screaming bloody murder all the time? Is it because I'm blunt? Jason Henderson wrote: but whining over piddly stuff like this sets me off. Piddly in your eyes maybe. Which just goes to proving my point. Jeremy Falcon
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jdunlap wrote: However, I really think that you should pursue the idea of donations/optional subscriptions Personally I think this idea isn't that great. For better or worse "Donation" links make a site look unprofessional (At least to me).
Kluch wrote: Personally I think this idea isn't that great. For better or worse "Donation" links make a site look unprofessional (At least to me). The typical 'help me - I don't get a check in the mail for writing this free stuff!' donation links do look unprofessional. However, that doesn't mean that's the only way to set something up. For instance, the EFF accepts donations. So do just about all of the non-governmental public action groups. I don't think many would consider them unprofessional, and I think that CodeProject could set up a donation system that was just as tasteful while still being, at it's heart, a donation system. -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: but for me all these ads make me feel as if my efforts are being used for your financial benefit They are, and I think rightly so. Chris et al deserve to be paid for their efforts. Without direct, full financial support from a) subscribers or b) Microsoft, c) advertising is pretty much all that's left. Jeremy Falcon wrote: And, I can't imagine many people being motivated by that to write more articles with that in mind Sharing with the community of devs is what should motivate people to write articles (and is what I think motivates contributers to Code Project). Do you believe that the knowledge that their articles will be displayed alongside targeted ads will de-motivate article writers? I can understand the knee-jerk reaction that 'hey - I wrote that! Why are trying to make money off of it?' in general. However, that reaction just doesn't make much sense in a free-for-all site like Code Project. If you're a good article writer, there are plenty of developers who have gained financially directly or indirectly from your articles. Does that make you cringe? -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
Russell Morris wrote: If you're a good article writer, there are plenty of developers who have gained financially directly or indirectly from your articles. Good point. Hey, quit mixing reason and logic with this!!!!! ;P Jeremy Falcon
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Ads? what ads? cant see one, oh! on the left side, never looked that side untill now.
I'll write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill - Dire Straits
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Jason Henderson wrote: What are you paying CodeProject to let you post messages and articles besides your time? You've got it all backwards. It's because of the articles that ppl visist this site. Do you think 1.1 million developers would've registered for a site with no content? Jason Henderson wrote: but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before screaming bloody murder at the top of my lungs. That's one thing I don't understand about you people. Why in the hell do you assume I'm screaming bloody murder all the time? Is it because I'm blunt? Jason Henderson wrote: but whining over piddly stuff like this sets me off. Piddly in your eyes maybe. Which just goes to proving my point. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: You've got it all backwards. It's because of the articles that ppl visist this site. Do you think 1.1 million developers would've registered for a site with no content? Do you think a site with 1.1 million developers and no fees will make money? Jeremy Falcon wrote: That's one thing I don't understand about you people. Why in the hell do you assume I'm screaming bloody murder all the time? Is it because I'm blunt? Um, maybe. Okay, yeah. Jeremy Falcon wrote: Piddly in your eyes maybe. Which just goes to proving my point. You need to learn to see the bigger picture I guess.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
Frankly, I don't mind them at all. You are running a business, whether people like it or not (you always get those anti-establishment people, don't you?), and everything requires money to run. While I don't have a problem with them, might I recommend a service (like for people like Marc) where authors can pay instead of having AdWords added to their articles? This would be similar in nature to /. moving to a subscription a while back where you get ads intermitently throughout the message board unless you pay a subscription fee to offset the cost (also based on impressions, but you wouldn't have to and could just go with a flat rate...much easier to program! ;)). Would I pay for them? Maybe, but not because I dislike the targetted advertisement...just because. Would someone like Marc? I'm betting they would (if the price was fair). Just a guess, though.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
Perhaps instead of the AdWords an author could opt to put a relevant link to a website and the author could be billed by the click? Just an idea.
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Chris, The ads are fine IMO. I seem to have lots of ads for VB.NET on my articles when they are all C# articles. But, if it takes a while for the "relevancy" to kick in then I'm happy that it will sort itself out shortly. The are in an unobtrusive location - and they didn't get confused by samples of Catalan on my internationalised hangman game article. If it helps pay to keep Code Project going then I'm all for it.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September Can't manage to P/Invoke that Win32 API in .NET? Why not do interop the wiki way! My Blog
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Ads? what ads? cant see one, oh! on the left side, never looked that side untill now.
I'll write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill - Dire Straits
I agree, I don't 'see' them either, I just never look at adverts.
"Laughing at our mistakes can lengthen our own life. Laughing at someone else's can shorten it." - Cullen Hightower
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with them. I just went and looked at an article and it's positioned in a manner that doesn't interfere with the article at all. I know it's good to find out what the populace thinks here, but to be honest your just going to get a holy war from the slash dotties of the world who don't realize a damn thing about running a business and the articles are easily worth 100 times more (on average) than the "cost" of viewing the ad so I say good on you Chris and keep it up if it will help your bottom line. Also kudos on picking Google Ad-word ads because they are among the least obtrusive and most potentially useful to the viewer of any advertising system there is. Cheers!
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose Bierce -
Chris, The ads are fine IMO. I seem to have lots of ads for VB.NET on my articles when they are all C# articles. But, if it takes a while for the "relevancy" to kick in then I'm happy that it will sort itself out shortly. The are in an unobtrusive location - and they didn't get confused by samples of Catalan on my internationalised hangman game article. If it helps pay to keep Code Project going then I'm all for it.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September Can't manage to P/Invoke that Win32 API in .NET? Why not do interop the wiki way! My Blog
Colin Angus Mackay wrote: The ads are fine IMO. I seem to have lots of ads for VB.NET on my articles when they are all C# articles. But, if it takes a while for the "relevancy" to kick in then I'm happy that it will sort itself out shortly. Just curious, but why in the world do you care how relevant they are? Bottom line is they help CP, they are unobtrusive etc etc. What's the difference if they flag something incorrectly once in a while. YOu can always toss in some keywords into your article to try and spoof the ad's to something amusing anyway right? ;)
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose Bierce -
OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
My 2c is that I don't mind having the ads. They are not very obtrusive - heck, I use GMail and I don't mind the ads 'cos I get an excellent service FOR FREE - CP is no different. So no complaints here. I have some more articles planned and I certainly won't be pulling any existing ones like others have threatened. CP has made my job much easier the last 4 years - I would feel a little selfish moaning about a few ads. The cost benefits to my productivity are hard to quantify, but I'm willing to bet that they are significant. Keep up the good work Chris.
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If you ask me if I liked the Google ads, I will say no, because:
- They're ugly. Just compare with those other banners you have at CP and you'll understand what I say.
- They're not cacheable. CP is slow as a turtle since you introduced Google ads, and I think it's not a coincidence.
- I hate having an ad banner almost on the side of my bio picture. I'm ugly, and my bio picture is ridiculous, but I still hate it.
- CodeProject looks so much CodeGuru now...
If you ask me if, like Marc, I'll abandon CP, well, I will say, no, at least for the moment, but there are some things that worry me:
- Do you remember Altavista? Once it was this great search engine. Then, it started adding ads, ads, ads, and forgot what they were: a great search engine. Google then came better, but would never have the oportunity to take over Altavista if Altavista wasn't so blind.
- Average article quality is dropping fast. People have blogs now, and publish some of their articles there. There are some damn good CP writers that don't even care to put their articles here ATM, which is a very bad sign. I don't know where you'll get the money (ads, donations, store, etc), but people like Marc deserve some money for their articles, or you'll end up losing them. Actually, offering money or goodies for some good articles will atract good writers.
Like someone already said, we don't own the site, and you've made good decisions in the past, but I think you should rethink your whole business strategy. Please, don't become Altavista. I loved Altavista, but I slowly started using Google over Altavista. Now everyone uses Google. Yes, even I am blogging now!
Yikes! We'll now we have the socialist opinion. Don't you guys at CP know that you should be running this simply out of the kindness of your hearts with no regard for your own personal welfare? Hows the view up on that horse Daniel?;)
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose Bierce -
My 2c is that I don't mind having the ads. They are not very obtrusive - heck, I use GMail and I don't mind the ads 'cos I get an excellent service FOR FREE - CP is no different. So no complaints here. I have some more articles planned and I certainly won't be pulling any existing ones like others have threatened. CP has made my job much easier the last 4 years - I would feel a little selfish moaning about a few ads. The cost benefits to my productivity are hard to quantify, but I'm willing to bet that they are significant. Keep up the good work Chris.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: CP has made my job much easier the last 4 years - I would feel a little selfish moaning about a few ads. The cost benefits to my productivity are hard to quantify, but I'm willing to bet that they are significant. Keep up the good work Chris. There is the definitive statement as far as I'm concerned. I agree wholeheartedly.
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose Bierce -
Colin Angus Mackay wrote: The ads are fine IMO. I seem to have lots of ads for VB.NET on my articles when they are all C# articles. But, if it takes a while for the "relevancy" to kick in then I'm happy that it will sort itself out shortly. Just curious, but why in the world do you care how relevant they are? Bottom line is they help CP, they are unobtrusive etc etc. What's the difference if they flag something incorrectly once in a while. YOu can always toss in some keywords into your article to try and spoof the ad's to something amusing anyway right? ;)
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose BierceJohn Cardinal wrote: Just curious, but why in the world do you care how relevant they are? Because....
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September Can't manage to P/Invoke that Win32 API in .NET? Why not do interop the wiki way! My Blog
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John Cardinal wrote: Just curious, but why in the world do you care how relevant they are? Because....
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September Can't manage to P/Invoke that Win32 API in .NET? Why not do interop the wiki way! My Blog