Google Ads - let's clear the air
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
I can't see any google ads!!! Have you pulled them out? :confused: But if you ask me (though I don't know how valid my opinion is, since the only article I wrote was for the scrapbook and not a technical article), I don't mind the google ads at all. In fact, I welcome it as it allows CP to keep running smoothly. If it makes money for you, even better. I'm happy for you and all others that worked so hard to make CP what it is today. The Code Project, The Community Project, The Cricket cough cough cough... I think today I am a better developer and a much better person than what I was before I joined CP. So thank you Chris, and thank you everyone on CP. :rose: A small suggestion, that might keep everyone happy: Allow article authors to opt out of google ads on request. Most authors won't mind having the ads on their articles, and those who really do, can tell you about it, and you can add them to a list which stops the ads being displayed on their articles. I am willing to bet most people (newcomers, especially) come here to look for stuff on dialog boxes, various controls, etc. Not highly technical stuff. The audience for such articles is very small. Though I haven't really looked at and compared the page views for different articles so please excuse me if I'm wrong. What this means is, not displaying ads on Marc's articles for example, would not have a tremendous impact on the revenues. Because Marc writes highly technical and sophisticated stuff, which is (excuse me but) not what most visitors to CP come looking for. Asking authors to pay a fees to get rid of the ads on their articles, as some others have suggested, is something I don't like (even though I don't think I have a say on this, but anyway). It's something like saying, pay up or else we show ads on your articles. This "or else" element is not very friendly. CP is a friendly place, right? :) In the end though, I don't see what the big deal is. It's an ad. Ads are a fact of life on the internet. You see them everywhere, so much that most of us have learned to tune them out. Hardly anyone notices them. Also, people should understand three things: 1. CP is a service to the community, not just the article authors. 2. Even though CP provides the service for free, it has to be run like a business. 3. It might boost your ego to think people come looking for you and your articles, but the fact is that they come here just to learn something. Or see how something works. Or even a bit of code they can just use. The don't
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I can't see any google ads!!! Have you pulled them out? :confused: But if you ask me (though I don't know how valid my opinion is, since the only article I wrote was for the scrapbook and not a technical article), I don't mind the google ads at all. In fact, I welcome it as it allows CP to keep running smoothly. If it makes money for you, even better. I'm happy for you and all others that worked so hard to make CP what it is today. The Code Project, The Community Project, The Cricket cough cough cough... I think today I am a better developer and a much better person than what I was before I joined CP. So thank you Chris, and thank you everyone on CP. :rose: A small suggestion, that might keep everyone happy: Allow article authors to opt out of google ads on request. Most authors won't mind having the ads on their articles, and those who really do, can tell you about it, and you can add them to a list which stops the ads being displayed on their articles. I am willing to bet most people (newcomers, especially) come here to look for stuff on dialog boxes, various controls, etc. Not highly technical stuff. The audience for such articles is very small. Though I haven't really looked at and compared the page views for different articles so please excuse me if I'm wrong. What this means is, not displaying ads on Marc's articles for example, would not have a tremendous impact on the revenues. Because Marc writes highly technical and sophisticated stuff, which is (excuse me but) not what most visitors to CP come looking for. Asking authors to pay a fees to get rid of the ads on their articles, as some others have suggested, is something I don't like (even though I don't think I have a say on this, but anyway). It's something like saying, pay up or else we show ads on your articles. This "or else" element is not very friendly. CP is a friendly place, right? :) In the end though, I don't see what the big deal is. It's an ad. Ads are a fact of life on the internet. You see them everywhere, so much that most of us have learned to tune them out. Hardly anyone notices them. Also, people should understand three things: 1. CP is a service to the community, not just the article authors. 2. Even though CP provides the service for free, it has to be run like a business. 3. It might boost your ego to think people come looking for you and your articles, but the fact is that they come here just to learn something. Or see how something works. Or even a bit of code they can just use. The don't
Rohit Sinha wrote: And really, I must be blind or something. I looked and looked, but can't see the ads. I can see the ads in the articles. (Bottom right corner of the article) BTW, I agree with you 100%.
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
Come on everyone, i had to really look for an ad on the page When I actually saw it , I found a free VS IDE UML Modeller. Not a problem. .netter
Wow now this is one heck of a subject. Here is my take on it. First let me say that I love this site and really appreciate all the articles that have been written for us developers. I can understand that someone would not want an add appearing in an article they had written. But really... what if CP put "Please be advised the following advertisement is here for more information and may ot may not be endorsed by the Author of this Article or CP" or something like that... Atleast this way you "The Author" get a voice and can let the user know that you "The Author" do not have anything to do with the advertisement following your article. just my thoughts William O'Malley
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Sorry, had to add this as a separate post, in case you'd already read my other one and miss the edit. I don't remember much about adwords, but I think it lets you specify negative keywords (or whatever they are called). Ads matching these negative keywords will NOT be displayed on the page. If this is correct, you can just ask people to specify their -ve keywords. That way that can have a bit of control over what appears on their articles. Again, do this on request only. Don't advertise it too much, or everyone will start doing this, and would defeat the whole purpose of content sensitive ads. ;P Regards, Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
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I'm confused. :confused: Do you feel threatened by a product which competes with your open source/freeware software? Marc, by making fuss/tantrums you are actually making more people to check out the competing product(Xamlon). In fact I just goggled to see what's it about. Don't forget how CPians supported your MyXAML. Remember your posts at lounge about MyXAML. You even advertise for free about your software in your signature. Marc, your code speaks volumes. Don't give a damn about an ad about competing product. In fact, if your software is good then it's the competing company who should be worried not you.
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: I'm confused. hehe. Sorry. The competition thing was a really bad example. What really bugs me about the google ads is that they are targetted ads, based on the article content. That simply doesn't sit right with me. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
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I was wrong on that, I apologize. I was getting a general feel for the anti faction as I read through the posts and it seems socialist in nature on average, and then I saw your name which I have some sort of memory of having a big discussion with you here about Microsoft or licensing or hackers or open source or some such that was based on your socialist point of view on that issue and my response just kicked in. In fact though, I just re-read your post and I agree that it doesn't appear to be socialist leaning at all, please take it to mean the majority of the other posters in the anti faction who don't feel that anyone should make a living running CodeProject but should simply do it out of the kindness of their hearts while they live apparently in a cardboard box under a bridge somewhere.
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose BierceJohn Cardinal wrote: with you here about Microsoft or licensing or hackers or open source or some such that was based on your socialist point of view on that issue and my response just kicked in. Weird: my friends and relatives often tell me that I am a leftist hater... :eek: Yes, even I am blogging now!
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Rohit Sinha wrote: And really, I must be blind or something. I looked and looked, but can't see the ads. I can see the ads in the articles. (Bottom right corner of the article) BTW, I agree with you 100%.
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: I can see the ads in the articles. (Bottom right corner of the article) I just went to your article. I can't see any ads. I've tried looking at other articles too, but I can't see them. Is it just me, or is anyone else experiencing this "problem"? :confused: Regards, Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
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Kant wrote: I can see the ads in the articles. (Bottom right corner of the article) I just went to your article. I can't see any ads. I've tried looking at other articles too, but I can't see them. Is it just me, or is anyone else experiencing this "problem"? :confused: Regards, Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
Rohit Sinha wrote: I just went to your article. I can't see any ads. I can see them. Just try and search for 'Google'. Rohit Sinha wrote: I've tried looking at other articles too, but I can't see them. Is it just me, I afraid so, what have you done to CP? :eek: ;)
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
cmk wrote: However, YOU aren't advertising other people's product - CP is. I disagree. Since the ad is keyed by the content of my article, I have, by virtue of the article, created a targetted ad. cmk wrote: Based on the location and nature of the ads, i don't feel that people will imply that you endorse the products - sorry. I agree with you. I'll throw the endorsement argument out, but I'll keep the argument that it is unethical to use my article content to generate targetted ads. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
I guess it's one of those agree to disagree situations. If the ad does not imply endorsement, then i can't see how the fact of it being targeted or random is relevant. If there was no google ad but the banner ads were targeted would there still be a problem ? The only case i can see is if the article is being used as jump point to a commercial product of your own, in which case the ads are competitive in nature (i'm not saying this is the case here - i don't know). However, in that case i would argue that you are getting free advertising through your article and as such aren't really in a position to argue about other ad content :) ... actually i'll amend that, i would argue that posting your article for the community to view for free is your payment for the advertising you get from the article. Of course all that's exchanged is favors - CP can't survive on favors - sadly ads are here to stay. If the article isn't a jump point for you, and you just dislike certain products so much that you don't want them to be seen near your work ... well i don't see any solution other than withholding your articles for now (which would be a shame). I really don't see how CP is being unethical. I thought Matt Gullett had some good suggestions to get around this problem. ...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
I don't care about the adds, they don't bother me.
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Rohit Sinha wrote: I just went to your article. I can't see any ads. I can see them. Just try and search for 'Google'. Rohit Sinha wrote: I've tried looking at other articles too, but I can't see them. Is it just me, I afraid so, what have you done to CP? :eek: ;)
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: I can see them. Just try and search for 'Google'. Tried that too. The ads are just not there. :confused: [EDIT] Now I can see them too, YAY! :) I was starting to feel a bit left out. :) All is well now. [/EDIT] Regards, Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
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Heath Stewart wrote: It's not technically in your article content and - as I said - there was already links to similar articles that you probably didn't endorse as well. True. Where the ad is, isn't the point. Targetted ads to other free articles found on CP (or anywhere else) is great. Targetted ads to commercial products is not acceptable in my opinion. I am not interested in advertising other people's products with my article content. How much simpler can I say it? Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
Marc Clifton wrote: How much simpler can I say it? I'm not a stupid person and do understand your point, but how do you expect CP to make enough money to remain free, which brings up my idea... Are you familiar with /.? A while back they went to an optional subscription that eliminates the ads while browsing (at least in certain places - I think the banner ad at the very top is still there, just no ads in the content). The site is still free, but ad supported for non-subscribers. Would you be willing (just out of curiosity) to pay a small fee to offset the cost of eliminating ads from your articles (which I think makes more sense that eliminating all ads while you're browsing the site)? Your articles are great and I'd like to see them and more from you here (I've used a lot of other sites and CP wins hands down). But CP needs money to survive and apparently the banners ads aren't doing it.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
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Marc Clifton wrote: How much simpler can I say it? I'm not a stupid person and do understand your point, but how do you expect CP to make enough money to remain free, which brings up my idea... Are you familiar with /.? A while back they went to an optional subscription that eliminates the ads while browsing (at least in certain places - I think the banner ad at the very top is still there, just no ads in the content). The site is still free, but ad supported for non-subscribers. Would you be willing (just out of curiosity) to pay a small fee to offset the cost of eliminating ads from your articles (which I think makes more sense that eliminating all ads while you're browsing the site)? Your articles are great and I'd like to see them and more from you here (I've used a lot of other sites and CP wins hands down). But CP needs money to survive and apparently the banners ads aren't doing it.
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
Heath Stewart wrote: I'm not a stupid person and do understand your point, Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were or anything like that. I was getting frustrated with the whole issue. Heath Stewart wrote: but how do you expect CP to make enough money to remain free I have no problem with banner ads, donate buttons, subscriber benefits, etc. Heath Stewart wrote: Would you be willing (just out of curiosity) to pay a small fee to offset the cost of eliminating ads from your articles (which I think makes more sense that eliminating all ads while you're browsing the site)? Absolutely. And not necessarily just a small fee. CP is very valuable to me. On par with an MSDN subscription. Speaking strictly for myself, I'd wouldn't even blink at, say, $500/yr! Heath Stewart wrote: Your articles are great and I'd like to see them and more from you here Thanks! Heath Stewart wrote: I've used a lot of other sites and CP wins hands down 110% agreement. Heath Stewart wrote: But CP needs money to survive and apparently the banners ads aren't doing it. So where's the donate button!!! Show me a donate button and I'll put my money where my mouth (err, fingers) are! Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Humm, well you must have already got this suggestion but here it is again, can that ad not be formated properly? It really does not go with CP website.
I'll write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill - Dire Straits
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
This is a great idea Chris. Targeted ads should give you more money for less real estate which is a plus as far as I am concerned. However, I just checked my articles and I don't understand why I get all these cow manure links. :confused: :rolleyes: :laugh: Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: but for me all these ads make me feel as if my efforts are being used for your financial benefit They are, and I think rightly so. Chris et al deserve to be paid for their efforts. Without direct, full financial support from a) subscribers or b) Microsoft, c) advertising is pretty much all that's left. Jeremy Falcon wrote: And, I can't imagine many people being motivated by that to write more articles with that in mind Sharing with the community of devs is what should motivate people to write articles (and is what I think motivates contributers to Code Project). Do you believe that the knowledge that their articles will be displayed alongside targeted ads will de-motivate article writers? I can understand the knee-jerk reaction that 'hey - I wrote that! Why are trying to make money off of it?' in general. However, that reaction just doesn't make much sense in a free-for-all site like Code Project. If you're a good article writer, there are plenty of developers who have gained financially directly or indirectly from your articles. Does that make you cringe? -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
rightly pointed...:-D
It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature.
suhredayan@gmail.commessenger :suhredayan@hotmail.com
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Nope - We're a separate company. We just piggy-backed on Dundas's infrastructure for a time to save cash. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
It would seem that you managed to stir up the pot rather nicely with this one, Chris. I've read most of the posts, and there are some very strong arguments, pro and con, about the ads and the manner in which they are implemented. For myself, I can only say that I don't care one way or another. The Google ads don't in any way detract from the value of the articles I read, nor do they imply any endorsement by the author(s) of the product offerred. All of the ads on CP want to induce me to buy things I neither need nor can afford, so I've learned not to notice them. I'm sure that's not what your advertisers want to hear, but it's a fact. If tacking ads onto articles helps to keep CP alive, I'm all in favor of them. CodeProject is an invaluable resource for me, being the only source of intelligent conversation I have access to. If it ever goes to a subscription based service, I'll have to drop it; ads are an innocuous way to support my habit, and I have no problem with the Google ads at all. Carry on, lad - a job well done... Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
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Chris Maunder wrote: Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? That's my vote. Chris Maunder wrote: We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. Most of the advertising is somewhat relevant anyway. It's for developers and we're developers. But, if you want to take the Google extreme fine, just keep the ads out of the articles and rotate them with the regular ads or something. I don't know about the other article writers, but for me all these ads make me feel as if my efforts are being used for your financial benefit (whether it be by toys, trips, or money). And, I can't imagine many people being motivated by that to write more articles with that in mind. Like I said before, maybe I'm wrong about what goes under the hood in CP, but that's the impression I get. Jeremy Falcon
If you would care to contribute towards bandwidth costs Jeremy... Personally I think the CP team word £$%^&*)very hard to keep things going and with over a million people joind and thousands of articles they have their work cut out. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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OK - the initial reaction has been pretty dark from a few of you. I honestly want to know why you hate it so much, why you see it as unethical, and why it is so much more obscene than, say, if we'd introduced a different sized banner. Is it the straw that broke the camel's back? The fact that ads are shown based on the article's content? The fact that it's Google? The fact that we make money off advertising? The design? This is not a precursor to subscription based article viewing nor is it a tip of any iceberg. This is an experiment to see if it works, if it's valuable, if we can achieve a balance, and, importantly, if it's acceptable. We want to provide advertising that is relevant, not just blast you with stuff that you simply don't care about. So let's talk this out - but please - if anyone doesn't mind or has positive comments then I'd like to hear those comments too. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
Hey Chris, Just want to say that I'm all for it if it helps to keep CP going and if it helps ye guys to continue making the advancements and improvements to CP (and :bob:) that have been made of late. I don't see any problem with it.. other then the fact that the ads are relevant and I will probably click on them and thus temporarily taking me away from CP (for as long as it takes me to hit ALT+TAB)... but then again, that is the point. You have my support and I'll gladly beat up anybody who bugs you about it. There is no reason for people to be acting so stupid (unless of couse you are giving google all that personal information that you collect about us ;-) ). Regards, Brian Dela :-) http://www.briandela.com IE 6 required.
http://www.briandela.com/pictures Now with a pictures section :-D
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