Muslims
-
Dan, you obviously didn't take the time to read Mustafa's reply, or if you did, you are so closed minded that you absorbed none of it. That was not what he said at all. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
Wrong on both counts. I read it, I absorbed it and I don't agree with it. Sorry. What he wrote was the theory and it all sounds nice. The reality is that in many of the more extreme Islamic coutries, women have fewer rights than men. This is often justified on religeous grounds when it seems to me to be little more than sexism. Personally I thought there was a lot of dodgy reasoning in the reply, for example: 6. Example of twin sisters This is saying that women should dress a certain way to avoid being molested. As usual women are required do something so that men are not tempted to molest them. I think men should be educated not to molest women.
-
Here is an explanation from www.whyislam.org: ------------------------------------------------ Q. Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil? A. The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam 1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity: 1. Babylonian Civilization: The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death. 2. Greek Civilization: Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society. 3. Roman Civilization: When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans. 4. Egyptian Civilization: The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil. 5. Pre-Islamic Arabia: Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive. 2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status. Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status. Hijab for men People usually only discuss ‘hijab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijab’ for men before ‘hijab’ for the women. The Qu
Mustafa Demirhan wrote: 9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years. Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease? Using this logic can we also assume that if the Islamic hijab is followed in America that the rate of Americans hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings killing 1000's of innocents will increase as well?? Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "It might look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm really quite busy."
-
No, it is not dictated in Qur'an. It is a matter of choice. I admit that in some countries, women are not allowed to work; but this does not mean that this is because of the Islam. In fact, this is because of misunderstanding of Islam. Kind regards Mustafa Demirhan http://www.macroangel.com Sonork ID 100.9935:zoltrix
-
So to prevent men having bad thoughts about women, women are punished by having to wear a bag on their heads. Seems a little unfair. Perhaps Muslim men should wear the bag on their head so that they can't see those thought provoking women.
Religion is not to be fair. Religion is not to be unfair. Religion is about faith, not logic. Looking for logic ? Keep doing science. If you believe that God (or whatever) told you to do this or that, you'll do. Without questioning. Sure, if you understand God's reasons is easier to comply, but you have to obey. I do not believe in any kind of religion, but I do understand and respect, even what looks ilogic and stupid to me, again, because religion isn't about logic. Crivo Automated Credit Assessment
-
Wrong on both counts. I read it, I absorbed it and I don't agree with it. Sorry. What he wrote was the theory and it all sounds nice. The reality is that in many of the more extreme Islamic coutries, women have fewer rights than men. This is often justified on religeous grounds when it seems to me to be little more than sexism. Personally I thought there was a lot of dodgy reasoning in the reply, for example: 6. Example of twin sisters This is saying that women should dress a certain way to avoid being molested. As usual women are required do something so that men are not tempted to molest them. I think men should be educated not to molest women.
Dan Bennett wrote: I read it, I absorbed it and I don't agree with it. Sorry. But from what you are saying, you do, you just worded it wrong. At least it seems you do. Dan Bennett wrote: The reality is that in many of the more extreme Islamic coutries, women have fewer rights than men. This is often justified on religeous grounds when it seems to me to be little more than sexism. One of the points made was that Islam does not impose these rules, but people use Islam to justify themselves imposing them. (I hope that reads right). I could use Islam to justify anything I wanted, in fact, I could use Sikhism to justify murdering my neighbour, if I just twisted round a few of their base principles. You tried to say that Islam itself imposed the rules you disagreed with (by stating "Muslims" which implies anybody with a faith inline with Islam, rather than "extreme Muslims" or even "some Muslims"), and that is not true, and that is what my initial reply was addressing. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
-
Mustafa Demirhan wrote: 9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years. Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease? Using this logic can we also assume that if the Islamic hijab is followed in America that the rate of Americans hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings killing 1000's of innocents will increase as well?? Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "It might look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm really quite busy."
Mike Mullikin wrote: Using this logic can we also assume that if the Islamic hijab is followed in America that the rate of Americans hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings killing 1000's of innocents will increase as well?? Using this logic then we can also assume that if an extreme Islamic group's hijab is followed in America, then the rate of Americans hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings killing 1000's of innocents will increase as well. Just as with any religion on earth in any country on earth. In fact, religion isn't even needed. The only reason this hasn't happened on this scale before, was because it was not possible before, though the same style of events has occured thoughout history. Remember that Tim McVeigh was in a way following his own little moral war (for surprising similar reasons come to think if it), and look what he did. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
-
Mike Mullikin wrote: Using this logic can we also assume that if the Islamic hijab is followed in America that the rate of Americans hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings killing 1000's of innocents will increase as well?? Using this logic then we can also assume that if an extreme Islamic group's hijab is followed in America, then the rate of Americans hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings killing 1000's of innocents will increase as well. Just as with any religion on earth in any country on earth. In fact, religion isn't even needed. The only reason this hasn't happened on this scale before, was because it was not possible before, though the same style of events has occured thoughout history. Remember that Tim McVeigh was in a way following his own little moral war (for surprising similar reasons come to think if it), and look what he did. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
David, I think you missed my point. I was not trying to imply that Islam caused the 9/11 disasters, nor that Muslims in general are to blame or should feel guilty. Quite the opposite. I beleive that each individual is responsible for his/her own actions and that trying to relate the rape rates in the US to the lack of following Islamic hijab is equally silly. On a more serious note: Rape is a crime of anger and power, not lust or desire. A man that rapes a woman rarely cares what she looks like or how she is dressed. Asking (or forcing) a woman to hide herself in day-to-day life so that men are not tempted to rape them is BS. Pure and simple. Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "It might look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm really quite busy."
-
David, I think you missed my point. I was not trying to imply that Islam caused the 9/11 disasters, nor that Muslims in general are to blame or should feel guilty. Quite the opposite. I beleive that each individual is responsible for his/her own actions and that trying to relate the rape rates in the US to the lack of following Islamic hijab is equally silly. On a more serious note: Rape is a crime of anger and power, not lust or desire. A man that rapes a woman rarely cares what she looks like or how she is dressed. Asking (or forcing) a woman to hide herself in day-to-day life so that men are not tempted to rape them is BS. Pure and simple. Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "It might look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm really quite busy."
If I missed your point it was because you didn't state it. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
-
Here is an explanation from www.whyislam.org: ------------------------------------------------ Q. Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil? A. The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam 1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity: 1. Babylonian Civilization: The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death. 2. Greek Civilization: Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society. 3. Roman Civilization: When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans. 4. Egyptian Civilization: The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil. 5. Pre-Islamic Arabia: Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive. 2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status. Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status. Hijab for men People usually only discuss ‘hijab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijab’ for men before ‘hijab’ for the women. The Qu
Could you answer the following questions: Why men can have four wives and divorce them at will? Why there are promises of sharp breasted women in heaven to those who obey God's will? Why death is the penalty for those who are converted from islam? :confused:
-
Michael Martin wrote: Why do Muslim women have to wear the bag over their head? A confession from a Canadian girl (as appeared in The Globe and Mail). My Body is My Own Business // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
-
And vice versa. :| ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
-
If I missed your point it was because you didn't state it. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
David Wulff wrote: If I missed your point it was because you didn't state it. sar·casm Pronunciation: 'sär-"ka-z&m Function: noun Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut Date: 1550 1 : A sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain 2 : A cutting, often ironic remark intended to show absurdity. Now, re-read my original question in a very sarcastic tone. "Using this logic can we also assume that if the Islamic hijab is followed in America that the rate of Americans hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings killing 1000's of innocents will increase as well??" Understand??? Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "If I have to hear another snide comment about Americans' lack of a sense of humour or use of sarcasm, I'm gonna scream!!" - Mike Mullikin 5/12/01
-
David Wulff wrote: If I missed your point it was because you didn't state it. sar·casm Pronunciation: 'sär-"ka-z&m Function: noun Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut Date: 1550 1 : A sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain 2 : A cutting, often ironic remark intended to show absurdity. Now, re-read my original question in a very sarcastic tone. "Using this logic can we also assume that if the Islamic hijab is followed in America that the rate of Americans hijacking passenger jets and crashing them into buildings killing 1000's of innocents will increase as well??" Understand??? Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "If I have to hear another snide comment about Americans' lack of a sense of humour or use of sarcasm, I'm gonna scream!!" - Mike Mullikin 5/12/01
You don't need to get sarcastic with me! But, 'sär-"ka-z&m only works (in written form) if you previously state your views. Your reply could be read as sarcastic or meaningful, however you intended it to come across. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
-
Could you answer the following questions: Why men can have four wives and divorce them at will? Why there are promises of sharp breasted women in heaven to those who obey God's will? Why death is the penalty for those who are converted from islam? :confused:
Lee A. wrote: Why men can have four wives and divorce them at will? Because religion was written by men, for men. Lee A. wrote: Why there are promises of sharp breasted women in heaven to those who obey God's will? (See above) Lee A. wrote: Why death is the penalty for those who are converted from islam? Death and enternal torture is promised to all who know about but choose to disregard Christianity. How is this in any way different if you are religious? Christianity goes to great pains to teach us the sanctity of human life, and then says that in out *real* existance this sancity is irrelavent. But hey, it's religion. It doesn't have to be logical! ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
-
You don't need to get sarcastic with me! But, 'sär-"ka-z&m only works (in written form) if you previously state your views. Your reply could be read as sarcastic or meaningful, however you intended it to come across. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
Sorry, I was hoping the sheer absurdity of it (my original question) would do the trick. I guess I should know better here in the CP Lounge. Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "It might look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm really quite busy."
-
Sorry, I was hoping the sheer absurdity of it (my original question) would do the trick. I guess I should know better here in the CP Lounge. Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "It might look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm really quite busy."
Mike Mullikin wrote: I guess I should know better here in the CP Lounge. :-D Well you get all sorts - that's why I wasn't sure. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
-
Lee A. wrote: Seems to be a perfect excuse to justify your believes No, I was merely quoting someone who actually wears it. The theological argument has already been given in earlier posts. Cheers. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
-
Why do Muslim women have to wear the bag over their head? Is it so another man does gaze upon another man's woman? The women can't blow kisses and make goo-goo eyes? The face is the most erotic zone amongst Muslims? Just confused. Michael Martin Australia mmartin@netspace.net.au "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Christianity has similar teachings, but they are more general rules of thumb. We are taught that if something causes a brother or sister to sin don't do it, even though it's not a sin in and of itself. For example The bible says nothing about wearing mini-skirts, but if a girl wears one and is causing people to struggle with lust then she "shouldn't" do it. It's not rule written in stone, it's a principal, a matter of heart. Of course a woman can say "I'll wear what I want! It's not my fault men are lustful." she has that choice. But if she really cares about the guy, and it didn't matter either way, why not err on the side of modesty?
-
Could you answer the following questions: Why men can have four wives and divorce them at will? Why there are promises of sharp breasted women in heaven to those who obey God's will? Why death is the penalty for those who are converted from islam? :confused:
Why men can have four wives and divorce them at will? That is not correct. It is allowed to have four fives, but just under special conditions. Also this is not encouraged in Islam. And be sure that according to Islam, a man CANNOT have four wives in TODAY'S WORLD. OK, you may ask why it behavior is so widespread in Islamic countries. In my opinion, all men know what Islam says, but they just seem to understand it in the other way. They know that it is not a good thing to have four wives, but in order to make themselves right, they say that this is what Islam says. BUT IT IS NOT!!! Why there are promises of sharp breasted women in heaven to those who obey God's will? Well, I think sharp breasted women is used to represent beautiful women. Beautiful woman is an award for a man. But also handsome man is an award for the woman. This is stated in Qur'an. Why death is the penalty for those who are converted from islam? Well, I dont know the reason for this. But it is not important for me. I am a muslim because I believe in GOD and I believe in the prophet MUHAMMED MUSTAFA (SAV). I completely understand what Islam says basicly. The rest is not as important as this. Because once I believe in GOD and in MUHAMMED (SAV), I just obey the rules. Sure, if you understand God's reasons is easier to comply, but you have to obey. Kind regards Mustafa Demirhan http://www.macroangel.com Sonork ID 100.9935:zoltrix
-
Dan Bennett wrote: I read it, I absorbed it and I don't agree with it. Sorry. But from what you are saying, you do, you just worded it wrong. At least it seems you do. Dan Bennett wrote: The reality is that in many of the more extreme Islamic coutries, women have fewer rights than men. This is often justified on religeous grounds when it seems to me to be little more than sexism. One of the points made was that Islam does not impose these rules, but people use Islam to justify themselves imposing them. (I hope that reads right). I could use Islam to justify anything I wanted, in fact, I could use Sikhism to justify murdering my neighbour, if I just twisted round a few of their base principles. You tried to say that Islam itself imposed the rules you disagreed with (by stating "Muslims" which implies anybody with a faith inline with Islam, rather than "extreme Muslims" or even "some Muslims"), and that is not true, and that is what my initial reply was addressing. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg
Well all religion (spelt correctly at last) is down to human interpretation - that's the problem. If the text from www.whyislam.org is a fair reflection of Islamic teaching (maybe it isn't) then I do think it is sexist. If not then it is just the article that I disagree with. Another example, the old, "she was asking for it argument": "Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation." This is just plain wrong. Any man who feels the need to sexually assault a woman because of what she is wearing, is the one who should have their freedom restricted. The text is full of this sort of absurd argument. It reminded me of the Christian fundamentalist arguments against evolution that have been posted here - but that's a thread that's been done to death already. Frankly, I find all religions absurd in equal measure.