Yeah? But which language gets the job and earns the bucks
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Sometimes I wonder what the people who complain about C# are actually trying to do with it. All I know is that if I can run a desk top app and a web app off the same basic codeset - I'm in heaven. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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I'll agree with that sentiment, with the exception being .NET Compact Framework development, because the amount of P/Invokes you have to write to do anything useful gets scarily high. But the XML support does work better than MSXML, and once you've got the mountain of P/Invokes done it more or less works.
I agree with you on that - MS has some work to do to make the Compact Framework as useful as it could be.
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dnh wrote: Okay I'll re-read the thread. Maybe I missed something... :-D Yes, you did. We were talking about
gc_scoped
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
:doh: And I thought you were talking about NLP library, not this (
gc_scooped) one. I was one post behind :-O OK, it was very concrete example then! David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
In a thread ( http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?forumid=1159&select=1121633&fr=51#xx1121181xx[^] ) started by Nish some suggests that C# is dead. Yeah? But which language are the majority of employers looking for when hunting for .Net developers. Bet it is C# and VB.Net and not C++. In fact, reading one head hunter's pamplet on salaries C++ is not even mentioned for .Net developers and the section on C++ developers talks about a 5 to 10% decrease in earings from last year. Maybe it is fun to be a C++ developer, and a blast from the past to work with legacy code, but it cain't be fun earning less than them managed code guys. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote: when hunting for .Net developers. Bet it is C# and VB.Net and not C++. MC++ is dead, it always was. So what ? Toasty0 wrote: and the section on C++ developers talks about a 5 to 10% decrease in earings from last year. A percentage decrease does not mean they are earning less than a .NET developer, only less than they did last year. Either way, who gives a toss ? Averages are just that, averages. A good programmer will find a good paying job in the language of their choice. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Toasty0 wrote: Just for the record, I never spoke about MC++. You did say: "...when hunting for .Net developers. Bet it is C# and VB.Net and not C++." A C++ .NET developer would be a MC++ developer, no? Cheers, Drew.
Yes, but that isn't what most post said. If you want to argue a contridiction I didn't make go right ahead. Thanks. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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PS: Is that developing .Net apps which is my other point and premise? Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Nope. Embedded stuff. I guess you gotta be in the right field
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Yes, but that isn't what most post said. If you want to argue a contridiction I didn't make go right ahead. Thanks. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote: Yes, but that isn't what most post said. :confused: If you mean "...isn't what MY post said." well, I quoted from your post - I can't read minds, I can only go by what you type. If you mean "...isn't what most of the posts said." well, I was responding to YOUR post, not 'most post'. Toasty0 wrote: If you want to argue a contridiction I didn't make go right ahead. Uhhh, OK? Drew.
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Ummm...I think you're missing the point which is Managed c++ vs c#, NOT c++ versus c#. Game devs can use whatever the hell they want, but it's unlikely to be .net based is it?
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
John Cardinal wrote: the point which is Managed c++ vs c# Well, MC++ has always been crap, which makes this entire conversation a pointless joke. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Yes, but that isn't what most post said. If you want to argue a contridiction I didn't make go right ahead. Thanks. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Sorry dude, that's exactly what your post said. 'When looking for .NET developers' means exactly what it says. I've been trying to work out how the need to MC++ developers relates to the general c++ job market, and as I read the replies, I see most people have taken you at your word, and assumed you meant what you said. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Shog9 wrote: What's scary is the number of people who've apparently switched sides... Nah. As far as I can see, the "converts" were using C++ for wrong purpose anyway (form based, business data-centric apps). They should have switched to VB long time ago. VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: As far as I can see, the "converts" were using C++ for wrong purpose anyway (form based, business data-centric apps). I don't see any reason not to use C++ to do this sort of stuff. If you use VB6, you end up writing C++ COM components to do the real work anyhow. When I was using MFC, I reckon I could churn out a GUI at the same rate as a VB6 user. Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET. Interesting - what makes it better ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: As far as I can see, the "converts" were using C++ for wrong purpose anyway (form based, business data-centric apps). I don't see any reason not to use C++ to do this sort of stuff. If you use VB6, you end up writing C++ COM components to do the real work anyhow. When I was using MFC, I reckon I could churn out a GUI at the same rate as a VB6 user. Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET. Interesting - what makes it better ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote: When I was using MFC, I reckon I could churn out a GUI at the same rate as a VB6 user. Depends. Most desktop business aplications have forms and grids to insert/edit data and Crystal Reports to print reports. It is way easier to do it (and especially to learn it) with VB6 or Delphi than with C++. Christian Graus wrote: VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET. Interesting - what makes it better ? VB6 has the best RAD environment I have had a chance to work with. The language itself does not depend on a non-deterministic GC, it compiles directly to machine code, can run on older hardware just fine. Strictly speaking it is not "real" OO, because it lacks implementation inheritance, but it supports type inheritance which is more important. Anyway, C# is OK for this kind of applications as well, but nothing really revolutionary - tools like VB, Delphi or Power Builder have been around for more than 10 years, and people have used them just fine. I don't like hype, and C# is all about hype, just like Java several years ago.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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Christian Graus wrote: When I was using MFC, I reckon I could churn out a GUI at the same rate as a VB6 user. Depends. Most desktop business aplications have forms and grids to insert/edit data and Crystal Reports to print reports. It is way easier to do it (and especially to learn it) with VB6 or Delphi than with C++. Christian Graus wrote: VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET. Interesting - what makes it better ? VB6 has the best RAD environment I have had a chance to work with. The language itself does not depend on a non-deterministic GC, it compiles directly to machine code, can run on older hardware just fine. Strictly speaking it is not "real" OO, because it lacks implementation inheritance, but it supports type inheritance which is more important. Anyway, C# is OK for this kind of applications as well, but nothing really revolutionary - tools like VB, Delphi or Power Builder have been around for more than 10 years, and people have used them just fine. I don't like hype, and C# is all about hype, just like Java several years ago.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Crystal Reports to print reports. OK - CR does change the overall picture, I guess. Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Anyway, C# is OK for this kind of applications as well, but nothing really revolutionary - tools like VB, Delphi or Power Builder have been around for more than 10 years, and people have used them just fine. I don't like hype, and C# is all about hype, just like Java several years ago. I tend to agree for the most part. What changes things is ASP.NET. ASP.NET is simply the best way to write web apps of any size, regardless if if they had invented C#, or used some other language to impliment it. It's cool enough that if it was only possible to do it using VB6, I'd use VB6 to write web apps. I was using VBScript before, so it would not be a step down. As it stands, every aspect is a step up. I've also written Windows applications using C#, and yeah, it's nice, but not the revolution that ASP.NET was/is. I've tried using J2EE and it doesn't even come close, J2EE is crap IMO, after using ASP.NET. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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John Cardinal wrote: So far no one has given any credible reason why MC++ should even exist. Ever use the
#importextension in VC++? That's the one that takes a good deal of the drudgery out of using COM from C++, by automatically generating wrapper classes for you. Sure, if your app is going to spend most of its time interacting with various pre-written COM objects, you're probably better off using VB6 or some other language intended to make this more or less seemless... but, for that 1% of your C++ app that benefits from using some COM stuff,#importrocks. IMHO, that's why MC++ is important. It's the new#import.You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
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Sorry, the second version sucks, because: 1. It's completely incompatible with previous versions. 2. I cannot write production code with it: it's still beta. There's no way I will use a buggy beta version on a production system. It's not even a "Release Candidate" (aka "feature freeze version") yet, so all the features can change, and there's no way to assure that even the sample you showed will work on the final version. Press "Next" two or three times on CP and you'll see someone complaining about the IDE deleting code. This could lead to really subtle bugs. BTW, could you please post a version of your example that compiles on VS.NET 2003, so that we could compare C# with something that compiles with the current version of C++ on .NET? I see dead pixels Yes, even I am blogging now!
Daniel Turini wrote: Sorry, the second version sucks The 2nd version was C# and the 1st version was C++/CLI :-D
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You don't even need to use the new operator for reference types? Like
StreamReader^ r = new StreamReader(...);
I do understand RAII and that StreamReader's destructor will serve the purpose of Dispose but not calling new for a reference type seems kinda weird to me. Particularly since in C++ (pure C++), your code will create an instance of r on the stack and new StreamReader will create one on the heap. In your case, r will be created on the managed heap and won't be deallocated till it gets GC'ed, right? Regards Senthil _____________________________ My Blog | My Articles | WinMacro
Hey Senthil See http://www.codeproject.com/managedcpp/cppclidtors.asp[^]
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Does C++/CLI have the C# equivalent of structs? Or are structs just normal C++ classes (without the ref keyword)? Regards Senthil _____________________________ My Blog | My Articles | WinMacro
C# class => C++ ref class or ref struct C# struct =? C++ value class or value struct
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: Because the federal government has not fully adopted C#, Which federal government are you talking about? The U.S. one? That's hardly relevant in the global scheme of things is it? The rest of the world is moving on, if the U.S. govt want's win32 apps they can build them themselves (which I'm sure they do anyway). So far no one has given any credible reason why MC++ should even exist. It's a product in search of a market which is always a bad sign. I understand people using c++ for win32 apps etc, but for .net apps? That's just completely pointless.
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
John Cardinal wrote: So far no one has given any credible reason why MC++ should even exist. It's a product in search of a market which is always a bad sign. I understand people using c++ for win32 apps etc, but for .net apps? That's just completely pointless. Because it completely pisses you off. :) I work for the US Govt, and I can tell you right now that they haven't standardized on any given language. If it were true, CHCS2 (a 10-year old project that has cost them over 5 billion dollars to date, and is just now going into limited beta) wouldn't have been written in Visual Basic. Anyone working for Integic lurking here? ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I was expecting this question. Because we're talking about language features here, using external files is cheating: you either include it, or you'll need to accept that C# has natural language processing features: NaturalLanguage.English.Process(sr.ReadLine()); Now, you just need to search the web and find some NLP library and I'll prove it to you. Hiding code in an external file to reduce the code size is cheating. I see dead pixels Yes, even I am blogging now!
Hey Daniel, C++ has natural language too (but is depenedant on the project deadline sometimes). "Hiding" code is cheating? That's an interesting comment... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Hey Senthil See http://www.codeproject.com/managedcpp/cppclidtors.asp[^]
Wow, that opens up a bewildering array of options for creating an object.
class A
{
};ref class B
{
};void Create()
{
A a;
A *a = new A();
B b;
B ^b = gcnew B();
}each with its own semantics. That's surely going to confuse beginners, IMHO. As it is, people find copy construction and stuff hard and miss subtle errors because of them. Regards Senthil _____________________________ My Blog | My Articles | WinMacro
