Yeah? But which language gets the job and earns the bucks
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Toasty0 wrote: ...when hunting for .Net developers. Bet it is C# and VB.Net and not C++. Of course. They are meant for .NET. Toasty0 wrote: Maybe it is fun to be a C++ developer, and a blast from the past to work with legacy code, but it cain't be fun earning less than them managed code guys. You are contradicting yourself. You talk about managed C++ for .NET and then talk about earning less than the managed code guys. Managed C++ is managed code. If you mean C++ in general earning less than managed code guys then you're comparing apples to oranges. Your head hunter's pamphlet talks about .NET developers. There's a whole world out there that doesn't care about .NET. (I'd venture a guess that it's the vast majority of the programming world) There are millions of embedded system developers, game programmers, scientific developers, kiosk terminal developers real-time critical application developers and on and on who still program in C, assembler and C++ (among other languages). .NET isn't anywhere on their horizon and likely never will be. A recent CP poll is a good example of this: of the millions and millions of mobile phones out there, how many use .NET? Very, very few (if any). I think the reason you can make a good living programming for .NET is that many educational institutions don't even teach it yet; competition is scarce. About 18 months ago I hired a .NET developer for a mapping extension we were building. Not a single applicant had any experience with .NET despite the presence of a very good college (now a university) in town with a computer science program! The fellow I ended up hiring had worked with Delphi programming real-time GPS related code. Did I care about .NET? Not really. Learning languages and frameworks is fairly easy compared to learning about GIS, GPS, mapping projections and GIS frameworks. He transitioned to C# fairly quickly. Earning money in a programming field is not just dependent on the programming languages you work with; your knowledge of the industry's specifics is just as, if not more, important. My 2c. Cheers, Drew.
Just for the record, I never spoke about MC++. Thanks. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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Daniel Turini wrote: Because we're talking about language features here, using external files is cheating: Not exactly. With C++ you can find a library that would produce the effect we were talking about, because C++ has language features (in this case templates and "__nogc" classes) that make this library possible. With C#, you can't find such a library because the language does not offer capabilities to make it (and believe me, I have tried). That's why C++ is a better language than C#: it offers more capabilities and puts less restrictions on libraries' writers.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: With C#, you can't find such a library because the language does not offer capabilities to make it (and believe me, I have tried). Interesting... Any example? please David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: With C#, you can't find such a library because the language does not offer capabilities to make it (and believe me, I have tried). Interesting... Any example? please David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidydnh wrote: Any example? We were talking about a very concrete example in this thread.
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Just for the record, I never spoke about MC++. Thanks. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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It is all about Windows application development. As a programming language, C# is not even in the same ball park as C++. However, as a windows application development language, C# is almost perfect for 99% of what needs to be done. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Couldn't have said it better myself. C# is great for windows apps (I'm finishing one today, in fact). Used in conjunction with some of the UI libraries out there, I'm amazed at how fast I can build a very solid, great looking application. Cheers, Drew.
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Couldn't have said it better myself. C# is great for windows apps (I'm finishing one today, in fact). Used in conjunction with some of the UI libraries out there, I'm amazed at how fast I can build a very solid, great looking application. Cheers, Drew.
Sometimes I wonder what the people who complain about C# are actually trying to do with it. All I know is that if I can run a desk top app and a web app off the same basic codeset - I'm in heaven. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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dnh wrote: Any example? We were talking about a very concrete example in this thread.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: We were talking about a very concrete example in this thread. hmm. So you had problem with disposing while writing NLP library in C#? :confused: Okay I'll re-read the thread. Maybe I missed something... btw I am interested in NLP library, and want to know why C# is bad for it... I am not trying to convince you that C# is better than C++ or something.. I am just curious. David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
It is all about Windows application development. As a programming language, C# is not even in the same ball park as C++. However, as a windows application development language, C# is almost perfect for 99% of what needs to be done. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
I'll agree with that sentiment, with the exception being .NET Compact Framework development, because the amount of P/Invokes you have to write to do anything useful gets scarily high. But the XML support does work better than MSXML, and once you've got the mountain of P/Invokes done it more or less works.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: We were talking about a very concrete example in this thread. hmm. So you had problem with disposing while writing NLP library in C#? :confused: Okay I'll re-read the thread. Maybe I missed something... btw I am interested in NLP library, and want to know why C# is bad for it... I am not trying to convince you that C# is better than C++ or something.. I am just curious. David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidydnh wrote: Okay I'll re-read the thread. Maybe I missed something... :-D Yes, you did. We were talking about
gc_scoped
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Sometimes I wonder what the people who complain about C# are actually trying to do with it. All I know is that if I can run a desk top app and a web app off the same basic codeset - I'm in heaven. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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I'll agree with that sentiment, with the exception being .NET Compact Framework development, because the amount of P/Invokes you have to write to do anything useful gets scarily high. But the XML support does work better than MSXML, and once you've got the mountain of P/Invokes done it more or less works.
I agree with you on that - MS has some work to do to make the Compact Framework as useful as it could be.
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dnh wrote: Okay I'll re-read the thread. Maybe I missed something... :-D Yes, you did. We were talking about
gc_scoped
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
:doh: And I thought you were talking about NLP library, not this (
gc_scooped) one. I was one post behind :-O OK, it was very concrete example then! David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
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In a thread ( http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?forumid=1159&select=1121633&fr=51#xx1121181xx[^] ) started by Nish some suggests that C# is dead. Yeah? But which language are the majority of employers looking for when hunting for .Net developers. Bet it is C# and VB.Net and not C++. In fact, reading one head hunter's pamplet on salaries C++ is not even mentioned for .Net developers and the section on C++ developers talks about a 5 to 10% decrease in earings from last year. Maybe it is fun to be a C++ developer, and a blast from the past to work with legacy code, but it cain't be fun earning less than them managed code guys. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote: when hunting for .Net developers. Bet it is C# and VB.Net and not C++. MC++ is dead, it always was. So what ? Toasty0 wrote: and the section on C++ developers talks about a 5 to 10% decrease in earings from last year. A percentage decrease does not mean they are earning less than a .NET developer, only less than they did last year. Either way, who gives a toss ? Averages are just that, averages. A good programmer will find a good paying job in the language of their choice. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Toasty0 wrote: Just for the record, I never spoke about MC++. You did say: "...when hunting for .Net developers. Bet it is C# and VB.Net and not C++." A C++ .NET developer would be a MC++ developer, no? Cheers, Drew.
Yes, but that isn't what most post said. If you want to argue a contridiction I didn't make go right ahead. Thanks. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
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PS: Is that developing .Net apps which is my other point and premise? Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Nope. Embedded stuff. I guess you gotta be in the right field
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Yes, but that isn't what most post said. If you want to argue a contridiction I didn't make go right ahead. Thanks. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote: Yes, but that isn't what most post said. :confused: If you mean "...isn't what MY post said." well, I quoted from your post - I can't read minds, I can only go by what you type. If you mean "...isn't what most of the posts said." well, I was responding to YOUR post, not 'most post'. Toasty0 wrote: If you want to argue a contridiction I didn't make go right ahead. Uhhh, OK? Drew.
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Ummm...I think you're missing the point which is Managed c++ vs c#, NOT c++ versus c#. Game devs can use whatever the hell they want, but it's unlikely to be .net based is it?
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
John Cardinal wrote: the point which is Managed c++ vs c# Well, MC++ has always been crap, which makes this entire conversation a pointless joke. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Yes, but that isn't what most post said. If you want to argue a contridiction I didn't make go right ahead. Thanks. Jerry Most people are willing to pay more to be amused than to be educated--Robert C. Savage, Life Lessons Toasty0.com Ladder League (beta) My Grandkids
Sorry dude, that's exactly what your post said. 'When looking for .NET developers' means exactly what it says. I've been trying to work out how the need to MC++ developers relates to the general c++ job market, and as I read the replies, I see most people have taken you at your word, and assumed you meant what you said. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Shog9 wrote: What's scary is the number of people who've apparently switched sides... Nah. As far as I can see, the "converts" were using C++ for wrong purpose anyway (form based, business data-centric apps). They should have switched to VB long time ago. VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: As far as I can see, the "converts" were using C++ for wrong purpose anyway (form based, business data-centric apps). I don't see any reason not to use C++ to do this sort of stuff. If you use VB6, you end up writing C++ COM components to do the real work anyhow. When I was using MFC, I reckon I could churn out a GUI at the same rate as a VB6 user. Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET. Interesting - what makes it better ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: As far as I can see, the "converts" were using C++ for wrong purpose anyway (form based, business data-centric apps). I don't see any reason not to use C++ to do this sort of stuff. If you use VB6, you end up writing C++ COM components to do the real work anyhow. When I was using MFC, I reckon I could churn out a GUI at the same rate as a VB6 user. Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET. Interesting - what makes it better ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote: When I was using MFC, I reckon I could churn out a GUI at the same rate as a VB6 user. Depends. Most desktop business aplications have forms and grids to insert/edit data and Crystal Reports to print reports. It is way easier to do it (and especially to learn it) with VB6 or Delphi than with C++. Christian Graus wrote: VB6 is perfect for this kind of development, IMHO better than .NET. Interesting - what makes it better ? VB6 has the best RAD environment I have had a chance to work with. The language itself does not depend on a non-deterministic GC, it compiles directly to machine code, can run on older hardware just fine. Strictly speaking it is not "real" OO, because it lacks implementation inheritance, but it supports type inheritance which is more important. Anyway, C# is OK for this kind of applications as well, but nothing really revolutionary - tools like VB, Delphi or Power Builder have been around for more than 10 years, and people have used them just fine. I don't like hype, and C# is all about hype, just like Java several years ago.
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