Experience with a Muslim
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Yeah I see what you mean, I can't but feel though that the thought process that goes on isn't as sophisticated as a comparing and contrasting of religous beliefs. Its probabily just good ole Xenophobia, its easier to dislike and disengage after all. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
What a bunch of crap. Yeah, I am confident in my beliefs too. Nobody of any consequence or credibility is out to demonize all muslims. Just the ones that want to kill the rest of us or to forcibly "convert" us by violence to their "religion." This has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with HATE FROM *some* MUSLIMS for the rest of the world. And it in large part stems from the spread of virulent, violent and militant form of Islam -- a twisting of the teachings of their Prophet.
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Definitely. I've been "labelled" a fair few times in the last few years, and in many cases people used the labels with the intention of causing pain. People are people. :rose: Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: with the intention of causing pain. You mean like the muslim terrorist bombers in London in the last few weeks, and in Egypt a few days ago, and in Bali, Indonesia? And in dozens and dozens of other places the world over? The people doing the labeling and the demonizing are the few hateful muslims who think the *we* have to be like *them* or they will exterminate us like so much vermin. When your very life is at stake cany you blame people for labeling? Man! Talk about blaming the victim!!! It's a matter of survival. That's the truth of it.
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[Not a programming question, not an ad, nothing that your kid sister shouldn't read, and certainly nothing that incites hatred, so I thought I'd post it in the Lounge :) ] [Also, I've known plenty of Muslims and have had Muslim friends (at school, college and in the neighborhood), it's just that this experience was something out of the ordinary and I thought I'd share it with you guys] So I was driving through a new part of town and found myself lost. I stopped an old Muslim on the street and asked him how to get to Kodambakkam railway station. He gave me complicated directions, and I didn't understand. Then he said, "I'm going part of the way myself. You drop me off there and I'll tell you the way from there" and I agreed. I noticed that he spoke Tamil (the local language here) with a faint accent, and I guessed he spoke Urdu like a lot of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. I dropped him off where he wanted to go and he told me the directions from there, and they were pretty simple. I thanked him, and said "Shukriya"* and "Khuda hafiz"**. He became profusely happy and repeated the directions and asked me, this time in Urdu if I got the directions right. I smiled back and said I did, and we went our ways. It's hard to believe some people are out to demonize men like the one I met. :( * "Thank You" in Urdu ** "May God protect you" in Urdu Cheers, Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: It's hard to believe some people are out to demonize men like the one I met. I'm not big in to sociology and the behaviors and habits of people. I could google for demonization but I'd be curious to here some replies for what people think it is. In a country where being of the wrong religion could get you killed or severely beaten the experience isn't a total surprise but I may not understand demonize correctly either. I could see him hiding his cards until you showed yours. He was older, you were younger, fear of you might have kept him quiet but the experience of the short drive with you garnered small amounts of his trust and then your closing remarks sealed the deal for him. Again if I understand "demonize" correctly his behavior isn't unusual I would chalk it up to basic survival instincts and call it a good thing. This symbol ><> has a story that goes with it. It goes that during the great Roman persecution of Christians you would meet a person (typically on the Damascus Road) and in speaking with them you would use your walking stick or foot to draw the bottom half. If they noticed and were of the same persuasion they would draw in the top then erase it with their foot. You would then know it was another Christian and you were safe to discuss things. Anyway, elaborate a bit more on demonizing... Or at least tell me if I'm getting the gyst of it. - Rex
I know you can't become if you only say what you would have done and you'll miss a million miles of fun." - Len Work hard, play hard. Don't forget who you are and don't forget where you're from. Do all these things well and you won't have to wonder where you are going.
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What a bunch of crap. Yeah, I am confident in my beliefs too. Nobody of any consequence or credibility is out to demonize all muslims. Just the ones that want to kill the rest of us or to forcibly "convert" us by violence to their "religion." This has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with HATE FROM *some* MUSLIMS for the rest of the world. And it in large part stems from the spread of virulent, violent and militant form of Islam -- a twisting of the teachings of their Prophet.
Sure its the Islamic extremists ... And its just them we dislike ... Every discussion on any ethnic minorities always starts with disclaimer that whatever the grievence it is only with a certain section of their community. The only problem is that it is presumed that their community condones this behavour so we hate them too, more sophisticated questions like "what is driving this behaviour etc" are rarely asked. After witnessing 30 years of conflict and the demonization on my own Island, I know the signs, its not the Catholics, its the IRA we hate ... well its not that simple really, the sins of the minority are visited on the majority. Off for my tea ... Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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James R. Twine wrote: However, it is important to remember that doing things like 'pointing out the observation that a high percentage of the terrorist attacks on the US and its allies are coming from people/groups that identify themselves as "Muslims"' is not demonizing them - it is calling it like it is. That reminds me of a mythical Andy Rooney quote: "When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the law of statistics. "
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
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And when 70% of people arrested or harassed by the police are black in a city where 30% of the population is black you have racism. What's your point?
fakefur wrote: And when 70% of people arrested or harassed by the police are black in a city where 30% of the population is black you have racism. What's your point? I don't know, what is your point since the above is your quote not mine? You must've jumped right into the middle of this thread rather than reading it in the right order. My comment was in support of the one made by Tom Archer. People seem to have a convenient knack for confusing racism with statistics.
"One must learn from the bite of the fire to leave it alone." - Native American Proverb
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: with the intention of causing pain. You mean like the muslim terrorist bombers in London in the last few weeks, and in Egypt a few days ago, and in Bali, Indonesia? And in dozens and dozens of other places the world over? The people doing the labeling and the demonizing are the few hateful muslims who think the *we* have to be like *them* or they will exterminate us like so much vermin. When your very life is at stake cany you blame people for labeling? Man! Talk about blaming the victim!!! It's a matter of survival. That's the truth of it.
You are missing the point. Some people use labels to cause pain to others directly, or to justify actions which do (witness, the bombers, and the backlash against those not involved but labelled as the same by the ignorant). That in itself attempts to trivialise the fact that people are pretty much the same regardless of belief or culture, and therefore is a force for evil - no matter who uses it. I'll quote you a few from my recent experience shall I? Freak. Pervert. Shemale. Abomination. All of the above were used by a so-called Christian support group I was a member of in 2000-2001 (I left under protest at their bigotry). :mad: Now do you see why I say what I do? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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You are missing the point. Some people use labels to cause pain to others directly, or to justify actions which do (witness, the bombers, and the backlash against those not involved but labelled as the same by the ignorant). That in itself attempts to trivialise the fact that people are pretty much the same regardless of belief or culture, and therefore is a force for evil - no matter who uses it. I'll quote you a few from my recent experience shall I? Freak. Pervert. Shemale. Abomination. All of the above were used by a so-called Christian support group I was a member of in 2000-2001 (I left under protest at their bigotry). :mad: Now do you see why I say what I do? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: You are missing the point. No, I am not. This isn't a discussion about your personal world. It's a discussion about muslim extremism and the fact that they're KILLING people -- not "merely" insulting them. And, it seems, that the victims are being blamed rather than the blame resting on those doing the killing. Whatever your personal situation is, I'm truly sorry you've experienced pain from other people who called you (or others like you) names. But again, this isn't about you.
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[Not a programming question, not an ad, nothing that your kid sister shouldn't read, and certainly nothing that incites hatred, so I thought I'd post it in the Lounge :) ] [Also, I've known plenty of Muslims and have had Muslim friends (at school, college and in the neighborhood), it's just that this experience was something out of the ordinary and I thought I'd share it with you guys] So I was driving through a new part of town and found myself lost. I stopped an old Muslim on the street and asked him how to get to Kodambakkam railway station. He gave me complicated directions, and I didn't understand. Then he said, "I'm going part of the way myself. You drop me off there and I'll tell you the way from there" and I agreed. I noticed that he spoke Tamil (the local language here) with a faint accent, and I guessed he spoke Urdu like a lot of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. I dropped him off where he wanted to go and he told me the directions from there, and they were pretty simple. I thanked him, and said "Shukriya"* and "Khuda hafiz"**. He became profusely happy and repeated the directions and asked me, this time in Urdu if I got the directions right. I smiled back and said I did, and we went our ways. It's hard to believe some people are out to demonize men like the one I met. :( * "Thank You" in Urdu ** "May God protect you" in Urdu Cheers, Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
In my opinion, good people are generally not demonized (to use your terminology). The problem exists only with the fundamentalists and terrorists not with the average Muslim. 60% of statistics are made up on the spot
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Yeah I see what you mean, I can't but feel though that the thought process that goes on isn't as sophisticated as a comparing and contrasting of religous beliefs. Its probabily just good ole Xenophobia, its easier to dislike and disengage after all. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
I am Christian, as I continue pursueing a relationship with Jesus, all other avenues seem suspect and wrong. Then I begin to view all other people as deceived, pursuing false gods and possibly evil ways. But something inside me acknowledges this isn't healthy, and that in fact some of these people are pursueing the truth as hard as I. Then I just understand that I don't understand. This makes a little sense: knowing God is like climbing a mountain, Christianity is the path I use to get to the top. There may be other paths or not, but getting off my path to explore another will not get me to where I want to go. If in fact Islam, Bhuddism, etc are valid paths, I'll find out when I get to the top. If I embrace all paths, I can never start the journey up the mountain. I have an understanding of Jesus and God that help me filter events. Sept. 11th, current activities in London are clearly wrong. I also acknowledge, that America does it's own damage to other countries and people.
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In my opinion, good people are generally not demonized (to use your terminology). The problem exists only with the fundamentalists and terrorists not with the average Muslim. 60% of statistics are made up on the spot
My experience with the average muslim suggests otherwise. Most are very silent on the subject of terrorist bombings and killins and when there are those that are not silent it's to celebrate the bombings and killings. Silence is compliance.
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I am Christian, as I continue pursueing a relationship with Jesus, all other avenues seem suspect and wrong. Then I begin to view all other people as deceived, pursuing false gods and possibly evil ways. But something inside me acknowledges this isn't healthy, and that in fact some of these people are pursueing the truth as hard as I. Then I just understand that I don't understand. This makes a little sense: knowing God is like climbing a mountain, Christianity is the path I use to get to the top. There may be other paths or not, but getting off my path to explore another will not get me to where I want to go. If in fact Islam, Bhuddism, etc are valid paths, I'll find out when I get to the top. If I embrace all paths, I can never start the journey up the mountain. I have an understanding of Jesus and God that help me filter events. Sept. 11th, current activities in London are clearly wrong. I also acknowledge, that America does it's own damage to other countries and people.
Turtle Hand wrote: all other avenues seem suspect and wrong It's because they are...John 14:6 Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Why can't you just say experience with a human being? Don't believe what you hear about people unless you have first hand experience with them. As you have found out reality doesn't resemble what other people with an agenda of their own will lead you to believe. Life's a bitch ... then you marry one!!!!!!!
BitchyHacker wrote: Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Where on earth did I say that? :confused: Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully - I know a lot of Muslims myself, and am friends with quite a few. Also, I'm from India, a land of 130 million Muslims (more than *any* other country except Indonesia). Just to reiterate - I was NOT surprised to meet a Muslim. I see dozens of them every single day. BitchyHacker wrote: Why can't you just say experience with a human being? Don't believe what you hear about people unless you have first hand experience with them. As you have found out reality doesn't resemble what other people with an agenda of their own will lead you to believe. Looks like my intent was totally lost on you. I never believe what others say unless I experience it (of course, I take scientists' word that E=mC^2, but we're not talking about that). I did not, not, NOT believe that all Muslims are evil. Living in a land of 130 million Muslims, I believe I know it better than anybody else. My post was merely about recounting an experience. I have seen many western CPians (who presumably have very little contact with Muslims) who think all Muslims are evil. This post was merely to suggest otherwise. I hope I made myself clear. :) Cheers, Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
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BitchyHacker wrote: Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Where on earth did I say that? :confused: Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully - I know a lot of Muslims myself, and am friends with quite a few. Also, I'm from India, a land of 130 million Muslims (more than *any* other country except Indonesia). Just to reiterate - I was NOT surprised to meet a Muslim. I see dozens of them every single day. BitchyHacker wrote: Why can't you just say experience with a human being? Don't believe what you hear about people unless you have first hand experience with them. As you have found out reality doesn't resemble what other people with an agenda of their own will lead you to believe. Looks like my intent was totally lost on you. I never believe what others say unless I experience it (of course, I take scientists' word that E=mC^2, but we're not talking about that). I did not, not, NOT believe that all Muslims are evil. Living in a land of 130 million Muslims, I believe I know it better than anybody else. My post was merely about recounting an experience. I have seen many western CPians (who presumably have very little contact with Muslims) who think all Muslims are evil. This post was merely to suggest otherwise. I hope I made myself clear. :) Cheers, Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: BitchyHacker wrote: Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Where on earth did I say that? The tone of your post was, at least to me, that you were reporting that you had a good experience with a Muslim man, if you were not why make the post at all? Perhapse you just wanted to send out a feel-good post in these times of uncertainty. Whatever your motive you did single out that the man was a Muslim. If you did not want to sound like this was a revelation about Muslims to you why did you even mention his religious affilation? Life's a bitch ... then you marry one!!!!!!!
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: You are missing the point. No, I am not. This isn't a discussion about your personal world. It's a discussion about muslim extremism and the fact that they're KILLING people -- not "merely" insulting them. And, it seems, that the victims are being blamed rather than the blame resting on those doing the killing. Whatever your personal situation is, I'm truly sorry you've experienced pain from other people who called you (or others like you) names. But again, this isn't about you.
Yes you are. Read my post again and you'll see I was talking more generally about the way people use labels to condemn and/or cause pain to others. That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith. The current hysteria exhibited my some over all Muslims (as opposed to the few idiot responsible for the terrorism in the first place) is just one example of that. Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: BitchyHacker wrote: Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Where on earth did I say that? The tone of your post was, at least to me, that you were reporting that you had a good experience with a Muslim man, if you were not why make the post at all? Perhapse you just wanted to send out a feel-good post in these times of uncertainty. Whatever your motive you did single out that the man was a Muslim. If you did not want to sound like this was a revelation about Muslims to you why did you even mention his religious affilation? Life's a bitch ... then you marry one!!!!!!!
It's hopeless, I give up! :mad: I've already said that I don't hate Muslims, that I have many Muslim friends and the intent of my original post was to tell the CPians who believe that all Muslims are evil that they aren't. Inspite of this, you keep picking bones with me. I'm not going to justify myself any further, and you are free to draw your own conclusions. :| "If you look for evil in me, you will find it - whether it's there or not." Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
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Turtle Hand wrote: all other avenues seem suspect and wrong It's because they are...John 14:6 Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
I know the way I follow is right. I wasn't given the intelligence and wisdom to judge other's ways, so I don't bother.
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Yes you are. Read my post again and you'll see I was talking more generally about the way people use labels to condemn and/or cause pain to others. That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith. The current hysteria exhibited my some over all Muslims (as opposed to the few idiot responsible for the terrorism in the first place) is just one example of that. Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
Actually YOU are missing the point. Yes people use labels to hurt others. Oh, yeah, you mean like the labels "America: The Great Satan" or "Death to America" being shouted out all over the muslim world in demonstrations like the one recently in Afganistan? Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? F*ck off
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Actually YOU are missing the point. Yes people use labels to hurt others. Oh, yeah, you mean like the labels "America: The Great Satan" or "Death to America" being shouted out all over the muslim world in demonstrations like the one recently in Afganistan? Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? F*ck off
ahz wrote: I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. you have not looked hard enough. In my home-town, they have been holding monthly prayer sessions praying for the death of all liberal judges, especially in the supreme court. Not the removal, not the retirement of, they want a clear message from God, so they are clear in what they are praying for. They threatened to burn down the theatre in town when it didn't get the movie on Christ until the 3rd week. One holds regular book burnings in town at every release of a Harry Potter novel and movie. And one defended a husband's right to kill his wife when she asked for a divorce. These are not Buddhist, Islamic, or Hindus. they do exist, though rare, they are extremists, and just as dangerous as any other extremist group. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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ahz wrote: I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. you have not looked hard enough. In my home-town, they have been holding monthly prayer sessions praying for the death of all liberal judges, especially in the supreme court. Not the removal, not the retirement of, they want a clear message from God, so they are clear in what they are praying for. They threatened to burn down the theatre in town when it didn't get the movie on Christ until the 3rd week. One holds regular book burnings in town at every release of a Harry Potter novel and movie. And one defended a husband's right to kill his wife when she asked for a divorce. These are not Buddhist, Islamic, or Hindus. they do exist, though rare, they are extremists, and just as dangerous as any other extremist group. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: praying for the death of all liberal judges, especially in the supreme court. The difference here is that they're praying, not going out and killing people. Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: they do exist, though rare, they are extremists, and just as dangerous as any other extremist group. I agree 100%. And it's a shame that such groups exist.