Experience with a Muslim
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And when 70% of people arrested or harassed by the police are black in a city where 30% of the population is black you have racism. What's your point?
fakefur wrote: And when 70% of people arrested or harassed by the police are black in a city where 30% of the population is black you have racism. What's your point? I don't know, what is your point since the above is your quote not mine? You must've jumped right into the middle of this thread rather than reading it in the right order. My comment was in support of the one made by Tom Archer. People seem to have a convenient knack for confusing racism with statistics.
"One must learn from the bite of the fire to leave it alone." - Native American Proverb
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: with the intention of causing pain. You mean like the muslim terrorist bombers in London in the last few weeks, and in Egypt a few days ago, and in Bali, Indonesia? And in dozens and dozens of other places the world over? The people doing the labeling and the demonizing are the few hateful muslims who think the *we* have to be like *them* or they will exterminate us like so much vermin. When your very life is at stake cany you blame people for labeling? Man! Talk about blaming the victim!!! It's a matter of survival. That's the truth of it.
You are missing the point. Some people use labels to cause pain to others directly, or to justify actions which do (witness, the bombers, and the backlash against those not involved but labelled as the same by the ignorant). That in itself attempts to trivialise the fact that people are pretty much the same regardless of belief or culture, and therefore is a force for evil - no matter who uses it. I'll quote you a few from my recent experience shall I? Freak. Pervert. Shemale. Abomination. All of the above were used by a so-called Christian support group I was a member of in 2000-2001 (I left under protest at their bigotry). :mad: Now do you see why I say what I do? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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You are missing the point. Some people use labels to cause pain to others directly, or to justify actions which do (witness, the bombers, and the backlash against those not involved but labelled as the same by the ignorant). That in itself attempts to trivialise the fact that people are pretty much the same regardless of belief or culture, and therefore is a force for evil - no matter who uses it. I'll quote you a few from my recent experience shall I? Freak. Pervert. Shemale. Abomination. All of the above were used by a so-called Christian support group I was a member of in 2000-2001 (I left under protest at their bigotry). :mad: Now do you see why I say what I do? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: You are missing the point. No, I am not. This isn't a discussion about your personal world. It's a discussion about muslim extremism and the fact that they're KILLING people -- not "merely" insulting them. And, it seems, that the victims are being blamed rather than the blame resting on those doing the killing. Whatever your personal situation is, I'm truly sorry you've experienced pain from other people who called you (or others like you) names. But again, this isn't about you.
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[Not a programming question, not an ad, nothing that your kid sister shouldn't read, and certainly nothing that incites hatred, so I thought I'd post it in the Lounge :) ] [Also, I've known plenty of Muslims and have had Muslim friends (at school, college and in the neighborhood), it's just that this experience was something out of the ordinary and I thought I'd share it with you guys] So I was driving through a new part of town and found myself lost. I stopped an old Muslim on the street and asked him how to get to Kodambakkam railway station. He gave me complicated directions, and I didn't understand. Then he said, "I'm going part of the way myself. You drop me off there and I'll tell you the way from there" and I agreed. I noticed that he spoke Tamil (the local language here) with a faint accent, and I guessed he spoke Urdu like a lot of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. I dropped him off where he wanted to go and he told me the directions from there, and they were pretty simple. I thanked him, and said "Shukriya"* and "Khuda hafiz"**. He became profusely happy and repeated the directions and asked me, this time in Urdu if I got the directions right. I smiled back and said I did, and we went our ways. It's hard to believe some people are out to demonize men like the one I met. :( * "Thank You" in Urdu ** "May God protect you" in Urdu Cheers, Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
In my opinion, good people are generally not demonized (to use your terminology). The problem exists only with the fundamentalists and terrorists not with the average Muslim. 60% of statistics are made up on the spot
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Yeah I see what you mean, I can't but feel though that the thought process that goes on isn't as sophisticated as a comparing and contrasting of religous beliefs. Its probabily just good ole Xenophobia, its easier to dislike and disengage after all. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
I am Christian, as I continue pursueing a relationship with Jesus, all other avenues seem suspect and wrong. Then I begin to view all other people as deceived, pursuing false gods and possibly evil ways. But something inside me acknowledges this isn't healthy, and that in fact some of these people are pursueing the truth as hard as I. Then I just understand that I don't understand. This makes a little sense: knowing God is like climbing a mountain, Christianity is the path I use to get to the top. There may be other paths or not, but getting off my path to explore another will not get me to where I want to go. If in fact Islam, Bhuddism, etc are valid paths, I'll find out when I get to the top. If I embrace all paths, I can never start the journey up the mountain. I have an understanding of Jesus and God that help me filter events. Sept. 11th, current activities in London are clearly wrong. I also acknowledge, that America does it's own damage to other countries and people.
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In my opinion, good people are generally not demonized (to use your terminology). The problem exists only with the fundamentalists and terrorists not with the average Muslim. 60% of statistics are made up on the spot
My experience with the average muslim suggests otherwise. Most are very silent on the subject of terrorist bombings and killins and when there are those that are not silent it's to celebrate the bombings and killings. Silence is compliance.
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I am Christian, as I continue pursueing a relationship with Jesus, all other avenues seem suspect and wrong. Then I begin to view all other people as deceived, pursuing false gods and possibly evil ways. But something inside me acknowledges this isn't healthy, and that in fact some of these people are pursueing the truth as hard as I. Then I just understand that I don't understand. This makes a little sense: knowing God is like climbing a mountain, Christianity is the path I use to get to the top. There may be other paths or not, but getting off my path to explore another will not get me to where I want to go. If in fact Islam, Bhuddism, etc are valid paths, I'll find out when I get to the top. If I embrace all paths, I can never start the journey up the mountain. I have an understanding of Jesus and God that help me filter events. Sept. 11th, current activities in London are clearly wrong. I also acknowledge, that America does it's own damage to other countries and people.
Turtle Hand wrote: all other avenues seem suspect and wrong It's because they are...John 14:6 Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Why can't you just say experience with a human being? Don't believe what you hear about people unless you have first hand experience with them. As you have found out reality doesn't resemble what other people with an agenda of their own will lead you to believe. Life's a bitch ... then you marry one!!!!!!!
BitchyHacker wrote: Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Where on earth did I say that? :confused: Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully - I know a lot of Muslims myself, and am friends with quite a few. Also, I'm from India, a land of 130 million Muslims (more than *any* other country except Indonesia). Just to reiterate - I was NOT surprised to meet a Muslim. I see dozens of them every single day. BitchyHacker wrote: Why can't you just say experience with a human being? Don't believe what you hear about people unless you have first hand experience with them. As you have found out reality doesn't resemble what other people with an agenda of their own will lead you to believe. Looks like my intent was totally lost on you. I never believe what others say unless I experience it (of course, I take scientists' word that E=mC^2, but we're not talking about that). I did not, not, NOT believe that all Muslims are evil. Living in a land of 130 million Muslims, I believe I know it better than anybody else. My post was merely about recounting an experience. I have seen many western CPians (who presumably have very little contact with Muslims) who think all Muslims are evil. This post was merely to suggest otherwise. I hope I made myself clear. :) Cheers, Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
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BitchyHacker wrote: Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Where on earth did I say that? :confused: Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully - I know a lot of Muslims myself, and am friends with quite a few. Also, I'm from India, a land of 130 million Muslims (more than *any* other country except Indonesia). Just to reiterate - I was NOT surprised to meet a Muslim. I see dozens of them every single day. BitchyHacker wrote: Why can't you just say experience with a human being? Don't believe what you hear about people unless you have first hand experience with them. As you have found out reality doesn't resemble what other people with an agenda of their own will lead you to believe. Looks like my intent was totally lost on you. I never believe what others say unless I experience it (of course, I take scientists' word that E=mC^2, but we're not talking about that). I did not, not, NOT believe that all Muslims are evil. Living in a land of 130 million Muslims, I believe I know it better than anybody else. My post was merely about recounting an experience. I have seen many western CPians (who presumably have very little contact with Muslims) who think all Muslims are evil. This post was merely to suggest otherwise. I hope I made myself clear. :) Cheers, Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: BitchyHacker wrote: Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Where on earth did I say that? The tone of your post was, at least to me, that you were reporting that you had a good experience with a Muslim man, if you were not why make the post at all? Perhapse you just wanted to send out a feel-good post in these times of uncertainty. Whatever your motive you did single out that the man was a Muslim. If you did not want to sound like this was a revelation about Muslims to you why did you even mention his religious affilation? Life's a bitch ... then you marry one!!!!!!!
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: You are missing the point. No, I am not. This isn't a discussion about your personal world. It's a discussion about muslim extremism and the fact that they're KILLING people -- not "merely" insulting them. And, it seems, that the victims are being blamed rather than the blame resting on those doing the killing. Whatever your personal situation is, I'm truly sorry you've experienced pain from other people who called you (or others like you) names. But again, this isn't about you.
Yes you are. Read my post again and you'll see I was talking more generally about the way people use labels to condemn and/or cause pain to others. That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith. The current hysteria exhibited my some over all Muslims (as opposed to the few idiot responsible for the terrorism in the first place) is just one example of that. Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: BitchyHacker wrote: Why does it surprise you that he is Muslim? Where on earth did I say that? The tone of your post was, at least to me, that you were reporting that you had a good experience with a Muslim man, if you were not why make the post at all? Perhapse you just wanted to send out a feel-good post in these times of uncertainty. Whatever your motive you did single out that the man was a Muslim. If you did not want to sound like this was a revelation about Muslims to you why did you even mention his religious affilation? Life's a bitch ... then you marry one!!!!!!!
It's hopeless, I give up! :mad: I've already said that I don't hate Muslims, that I have many Muslim friends and the intent of my original post was to tell the CPians who believe that all Muslims are evil that they aren't. Inspite of this, you keep picking bones with me. I'm not going to justify myself any further, and you are free to draw your own conclusions. :| "If you look for evil in me, you will find it - whether it's there or not." Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
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Turtle Hand wrote: all other avenues seem suspect and wrong It's because they are...John 14:6 Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
I know the way I follow is right. I wasn't given the intelligence and wisdom to judge other's ways, so I don't bother.
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Yes you are. Read my post again and you'll see I was talking more generally about the way people use labels to condemn and/or cause pain to others. That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith. The current hysteria exhibited my some over all Muslims (as opposed to the few idiot responsible for the terrorism in the first place) is just one example of that. Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
Actually YOU are missing the point. Yes people use labels to hurt others. Oh, yeah, you mean like the labels "America: The Great Satan" or "Death to America" being shouted out all over the muslim world in demonstrations like the one recently in Afganistan? Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? F*ck off
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Actually YOU are missing the point. Yes people use labels to hurt others. Oh, yeah, you mean like the labels "America: The Great Satan" or "Death to America" being shouted out all over the muslim world in demonstrations like the one recently in Afganistan? Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? F*ck off
ahz wrote: I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. you have not looked hard enough. In my home-town, they have been holding monthly prayer sessions praying for the death of all liberal judges, especially in the supreme court. Not the removal, not the retirement of, they want a clear message from God, so they are clear in what they are praying for. They threatened to burn down the theatre in town when it didn't get the movie on Christ until the 3rd week. One holds regular book burnings in town at every release of a Harry Potter novel and movie. And one defended a husband's right to kill his wife when she asked for a divorce. These are not Buddhist, Islamic, or Hindus. they do exist, though rare, they are extremists, and just as dangerous as any other extremist group. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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ahz wrote: I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. you have not looked hard enough. In my home-town, they have been holding monthly prayer sessions praying for the death of all liberal judges, especially in the supreme court. Not the removal, not the retirement of, they want a clear message from God, so they are clear in what they are praying for. They threatened to burn down the theatre in town when it didn't get the movie on Christ until the 3rd week. One holds regular book burnings in town at every release of a Harry Potter novel and movie. And one defended a husband's right to kill his wife when she asked for a divorce. These are not Buddhist, Islamic, or Hindus. they do exist, though rare, they are extremists, and just as dangerous as any other extremist group. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: praying for the death of all liberal judges, especially in the supreme court. The difference here is that they're praying, not going out and killing people. Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: they do exist, though rare, they are extremists, and just as dangerous as any other extremist group. I agree 100%. And it's a shame that such groups exist.
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: praying for the death of all liberal judges, especially in the supreme court. The difference here is that they're praying, not going out and killing people. Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: they do exist, though rare, they are extremists, and just as dangerous as any other extremist group. I agree 100%. And it's a shame that such groups exist.
ahz wrote: The difference here is that they're praying, not going out and killing people. Give them time. The same guy who burns books is spreading his message. the 10 commandments ONLY apply to men who are christian in regards to men who are christian. Therefore it is NOT a sin to kill a non-christian or a woman. So just give someone time to realize what that means. He defends the just torture of all non-christians for any reason, or no reason at all, etc. He is no better, no worse than the extremist clerics whome we know too well on the other side of the atlantic, the difference is no one has yet acted on his message, that we know of. Other than the man who shot his wife, but that's about once a year here anyhow, just different because it was the first time a church defended murder. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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It's hopeless, I give up! :mad: I've already said that I don't hate Muslims, that I have many Muslim friends and the intent of my original post was to tell the CPians who believe that all Muslims are evil that they aren't. Inspite of this, you keep picking bones with me. I'm not going to justify myself any further, and you are free to draw your own conclusions. :| "If you look for evil in me, you will find it - whether it's there or not." Vikram.
http://www.geocities.com/vpunathambekar "You still have the coolest name on CodeProject." — David Wulff to me.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: I've already said that I don't hate Muslims I never suggested that you hate Muslims. All I said was that I found it strange that you would characterize this man as a Muslim and not just a human being. Forgive me if I did not make myself clear. My point is not that you hate Muslims but that you feel compelled to characterize this gentleman by his religious affiliation. If it is not supposed to matter why mention it in the first place? I believe that if you bring something up you have an issue with it. I am not implying that you hate anyone but just that you have issues to work on before you can look at people as people and not what color, religion, ethnicity, national origin, etc., they are. I took a look at your previous post and found two statements I found offensive but did not want to comment on so as to not diverge from what I was trying to say. Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: Living in a land of 130 million Muslims, I believe I know it better than anybody else. What an arrogant statement! Hindu/Muslim relations in India are nothing to be bragging about. There is that pesky incident where Hindus destroyed an ancient Mosque and in the pursuant secular violence over a thousand people died. The whole incident caused a rift that is still festering like an open wound. Let us not forget the related train incident where religious pilgrims were slaughtered returning from a pilgrimage. Admittedly, these are selective incidents, used to illustrate the point that just because you live in the same country as some “other” group does not mean a thing. It is how you view yourself and the people around you that matters. Vikram A Punathambekar wrote: I have seen many western CPians (who presumably have very little contact with Muslims) who think all Muslims are evil. What gives you the right to disparage westerners like that? Do you know that Islam is the second largest religion (Christianity is the largest) in the United States of America? That’s right bucko; the US has a Muslim population also. The vast majority of which are law abiding citizens that want what most people want; a good life for themselves and their family. Since when did you get appointed to speak for what westerners believe? My point is not that you hate Muslims, although you are reacting a bit strongly to something you claim does not pertain to you, but that by characterizing this gentle
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Actually YOU are missing the point. Yes people use labels to hurt others. Oh, yeah, you mean like the labels "America: The Great Satan" or "Death to America" being shouted out all over the muslim world in demonstrations like the one recently in Afganistan? Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: That's a human phenomenon, and not restricted to any community or faith I disagree. You wont see Buddists, Hindus, or Christians, etc demonstrating en mass for the death of some group of people of another faith, but you do see islamists/muslims doing that. Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: Grind your axe somewhere else, OK? F*ck off
No I'm not. Look at some of the "tit for tat" violence which has happened between Faith communities in the Indian subcontinent a couple of years back. If you want further evidence that Christian communities can be violent, you only have to look at European history, after all. ahz wrote: F*ck off You have just very ably proved you're incapable of rational debate. Go away, and don't bother coming back until you've grown up. :mad: Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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No I'm not. Look at some of the "tit for tat" violence which has happened between Faith communities in the Indian subcontinent a couple of years back. If you want further evidence that Christian communities can be violent, you only have to look at European history, after all. ahz wrote: F*ck off You have just very ably proved you're incapable of rational debate. Go away, and don't bother coming back until you've grown up. :mad: Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: Go away, and don't bother coming back until you've grown up FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF!
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: Go away, and don't bother coming back until you've grown up FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF!
You have just proved my point. Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.