I probably shouldn't post this...
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Yet, today in Europe you don't find statistically any where near the same number of people, who feel the need to end someone elses life. Our incidence of crime and our criminal population is lower than the US. Yet we share the same ethnically diverse, wealthy and democratic society. With one difference, we can't carry gun. QED. In fact as far as I am aware, no other country has a set of gun control laws similar to that of the US. So am I to understand that everyone else (the other 7 billion of us, are wrong and the US is right ? Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Our incidence of crime and our criminal population is lower than the US. You/QED/whoever are kind of missing the point that the US is slightly larger than Ireland, and indeed almost any other country on Earth. They are bound to have higher numbers of everything within thier population. There is a saying: "you can use statistics to prove anything". sixty four percent of people know that. (simpsons quote). So am I to understand that everyone else (the other 7 billion of us, are wrong and the US is right? Yes. It's called the American Ego. Get used to it as it will be shoved down your throat by the free, peace loving American public all your life. It all comes down to the fact that they beleive they have a god-given right to do just about anything they want. That's the beauty of religion - everyone is free to interpret it to justify what they want to. That said, I don't want to pick any fights with any of you yanks (I can't possibly win anyway, I am obviously wrong since I am non-American). And I agree with the gist of what Ray was saying. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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Our incidence of crime and our criminal population is lower than the US. You/QED/whoever are kind of missing the point that the US is slightly larger than Ireland, and indeed almost any other country on Earth. They are bound to have higher numbers of everything within thier population. There is a saying: "you can use statistics to prove anything". sixty four percent of people know that. (simpsons quote). So am I to understand that everyone else (the other 7 billion of us, are wrong and the US is right? Yes. It's called the American Ego. Get used to it as it will be shoved down your throat by the free, peace loving American public all your life. It all comes down to the fact that they beleive they have a god-given right to do just about anything they want. That's the beauty of religion - everyone is free to interpret it to justify what they want to. That said, I don't want to pick any fights with any of you yanks (I can't possibly win anyway, I am obviously wrong since I am non-American). And I agree with the gist of what Ray was saying. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
> It's called the American Ego. Get used to it as it will be shoved down > your throat by the free, peace loving American public all your life. > It all comes down to the fact that they beleive they have a god-given > right to do just about anything they want. I think that is a little broad in scope. We don't think *we* have the right to do "anything we want". We think EVERYBODY has the same rights we do, and we find it incredible to find people in the world that don't think they have those rights too. > I can't possibly win anyway, I am obviously wrong since I am > non-American No, you're wrong because you're just plain out-numbered, and what's worse, we're armed to the freakin teeth because *we can be*. :-)
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It is funny, Chrisitan, that the NRA's numbers are all propaganda but the "Brady's" numbers are all factual. Its *all* propaganda, dude. It is obviously ridiculous to compare numbers of "gun" deaths out of a population of 270 Million + to war time deaths out of a few hundred thousand troops in combat. Last year, when my wife and I were looking for new homes in East Central Indiana (gag) *every* older home we looked at had weaponry in it. In many cases "assault" rifles, pistols, and equipment for making ammunition were left right out in the open. Last year on a trip back to see my family in Western Oklahoma, I went out target shooting with a cousin of mine, he had two mini-14 "assault" rifles. While out, we were joined by two of his friends with their assault rifles. My point, is that your numbers are meaningless. I grew up around guns, everyone I knew had them. My friends and I were all out hunting with our .22s at age twelve. The effort it would take to disarm the American public would be monumental. Virtually every American I know believes they have a God-given right to own whatever kind of weaponry they please and it is a waste of breath to try to convince them otherwise. I don't own a gun myself, and probably never will, yet I fully believe that a free man does not have to ask permission to defend himself, and I like knowing that, if needed, I could avail myself of weaponry as I please. Could disarming the American public bring gun deaths down? Well, duh! But people who are determined to kill each other will find a way to do it even if they don't have guns. Timothy McViegh killed, what, 180 something - never fired a shot. Yet, you could also bring those numbers down not by getting rid of the 2nd amendment but by getting rid of the 1st. When I was a kid people were heavily armed, and far fewer people were being murdered, because we were a more moral nation (in that regard). The thought of shooting your classmates was simply not an option. Today, after 40 years of the "if it feels good, do it" mentality, people are far more inclined to solve their problems with guns. Shut Hollywood up for a few years, teach Chrisitan morality in school again, and I can assure you those numbers *will* go down. To me, as an American, one option is as onerous as the other. I am a trained combat officer in the U.S. Army (inactive), I have hunted on a regular basis my entire life. I am very familiar with weaponry of virtually every kind. I can assure you that the existence of combat style weaponry in the h
"I am a trained combat officer in the U.S. Army (inactive), I have hunted on a regular basis my entire life. I am very familiar with weaponry of virtually every kind. I can assure you that the existence of combat style weaponry in the hands the citizenry *will* give any government pause when it comes to suppressing a people." The French seem to manage absolutely fine without guns when their government does ANYTHING they don't like. They just bring the tractors into town, blockade the ports, block main roads. Every single time, the government backs down. Cheers, Peter
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> It's called the American Ego. Get used to it as it will be shoved down > your throat by the free, peace loving American public all your life. > It all comes down to the fact that they beleive they have a god-given > right to do just about anything they want. I think that is a little broad in scope. We don't think *we* have the right to do "anything we want". We think EVERYBODY has the same rights we do, and we find it incredible to find people in the world that don't think they have those rights too. > I can't possibly win anyway, I am obviously wrong since I am > non-American No, you're wrong because you're just plain out-numbered, and what's worse, we're armed to the freakin teeth because *we can be*. :-)
I find it incredible that people would even want some of your rights. With possible expectation to your right to not to say anything if it incriminates you (whoever though that one up certainly wanted Justice to prevail...) For example, that 'thing' (I say thing as I’m not sure offhand if it is law or just an 'accepted thing') whereby you have the right to defend your land by acceptable means (again, "acceptable means" can be what the hell you want it to be) is seriously floored. I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their house is surely taking it a bit too far? Have you ever sat down and wondered why in America the postman leave your mail at the end of your drive? Or why the paperboys just throw the newspaper at your door? It isn’t because their lazy you know. It’s because they like having their legs attached to their body. The fact that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong is purely because you are bigger than most of us, and the ones who are bigger than you are either too scared to do anything about it, or have been bought - er, I mean share the same views. It's the same with schoolyard bullies. And supermarkets and car manufacturers too for that matter. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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"I am a trained combat officer in the U.S. Army (inactive), I have hunted on a regular basis my entire life. I am very familiar with weaponry of virtually every kind. I can assure you that the existence of combat style weaponry in the hands the citizenry *will* give any government pause when it comes to suppressing a people." The French seem to manage absolutely fine without guns when their government does ANYTHING they don't like. They just bring the tractors into town, blockade the ports, block main roads. Every single time, the government backs down. Cheers, Peter
Hmmm, maybe they should have tried that against the Germans.;)
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I find it incredible that people would even want some of your rights. With possible expectation to your right to not to say anything if it incriminates you (whoever though that one up certainly wanted Justice to prevail...) For example, that 'thing' (I say thing as I’m not sure offhand if it is law or just an 'accepted thing') whereby you have the right to defend your land by acceptable means (again, "acceptable means" can be what the hell you want it to be) is seriously floored. I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their house is surely taking it a bit too far? Have you ever sat down and wondered why in America the postman leave your mail at the end of your drive? Or why the paperboys just throw the newspaper at your door? It isn’t because their lazy you know. It’s because they like having their legs attached to their body. The fact that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong is purely because you are bigger than most of us, and the ones who are bigger than you are either too scared to do anything about it, or have been bought - er, I mean share the same views. It's the same with schoolyard bullies. And supermarkets and car manufacturers too for that matter. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
> With possible expectation to your right to not to say anything if it incriminates > you (whoever though that one up certainly wanted Justice to prevail...) So, you're saying you'd rather have it like it was in the 1600's when the Court of England *always* found you guilty, but were kind enough to allow you to confess to your crimes? Man, that sounds fair to me. > I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent > your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their > shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their > house is surely taking it a bit too far? "These guys in film" are necessary to the story line, and most of those stories pertain to the past, not present day. Most cities have laws prohibiting firing weapons within city limits, and most states have laws against even displaying a firearm in a threatening manner. Granted, the further out from civilization you get, the less likely it is that the local sheriff is gonna haul you to the pokey for bending the rules a bit, but generally speaking, we don't have the shotgun-stroking toothless redneck to whom you are referring. > Have you ever sat down and wondered why in America the postman leave your mail at > the end of your drive? Not at all. It's called "convenience". Have you ever noticed that the driver's side of the mail jeep is on what we yanks refer to as the "wrong side"? It's so they can just flip down the mailbox door, and slip the mail inside without leaving their vehicle. Not only that, but many rural addresses are usually several hundred yards OFF the road, so I see it as someone doing the mailman a favor by putting a box on a pole down by the road. In ALL of my 45 years, I've lived in houses where the mailbox was either right next to the front door, or was a slot in the door. I recently moved to Texas, and this is honestly the first time I've had a mailbox out by the curb.
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I find it incredible that people would even want some of your rights. With possible expectation to your right to not to say anything if it incriminates you (whoever though that one up certainly wanted Justice to prevail...) For example, that 'thing' (I say thing as I’m not sure offhand if it is law or just an 'accepted thing') whereby you have the right to defend your land by acceptable means (again, "acceptable means" can be what the hell you want it to be) is seriously floored. I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their house is surely taking it a bit too far? Have you ever sat down and wondered why in America the postman leave your mail at the end of your drive? Or why the paperboys just throw the newspaper at your door? It isn’t because their lazy you know. It’s because they like having their legs attached to their body. The fact that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong is purely because you are bigger than most of us, and the ones who are bigger than you are either too scared to do anything about it, or have been bought - er, I mean share the same views. It's the same with schoolyard bullies. And supermarkets and car manufacturers too for that matter. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their house is surely taking it a bit too far? LOL :laugh: You watch way too much TV! Jon Sagara "Your schwartz is as big as mine!"
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Moms are usually right in my expierence.:) Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their house is surely taking it a bit too far? LOL :laugh: You watch way too much TV! Jon Sagara "Your schwartz is as big as mine!"
That was an attempt to bring humor into the discussion. Actaully I can't recal a single film that i've seen that in, but I must have got it from somewhere. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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That was an attempt to bring humor into the discussion. Actaully I can't recal a single film that i've seen that in, but I must have got it from somewhere. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
Yep, I got it. :) Jon Sagara "Your schwartz is as big as mine!"
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> With possible expectation to your right to not to say anything if it incriminates > you (whoever though that one up certainly wanted Justice to prevail...) So, you're saying you'd rather have it like it was in the 1600's when the Court of England *always* found you guilty, but were kind enough to allow you to confess to your crimes? Man, that sounds fair to me. > I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent > your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their > shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their > house is surely taking it a bit too far? "These guys in film" are necessary to the story line, and most of those stories pertain to the past, not present day. Most cities have laws prohibiting firing weapons within city limits, and most states have laws against even displaying a firearm in a threatening manner. Granted, the further out from civilization you get, the less likely it is that the local sheriff is gonna haul you to the pokey for bending the rules a bit, but generally speaking, we don't have the shotgun-stroking toothless redneck to whom you are referring. > Have you ever sat down and wondered why in America the postman leave your mail at > the end of your drive? Not at all. It's called "convenience". Have you ever noticed that the driver's side of the mail jeep is on what we yanks refer to as the "wrong side"? It's so they can just flip down the mailbox door, and slip the mail inside without leaving their vehicle. Not only that, but many rural addresses are usually several hundred yards OFF the road, so I see it as someone doing the mailman a favor by putting a box on a pole down by the road. In ALL of my 45 years, I've lived in houses where the mailbox was either right next to the front door, or was a slot in the door. I recently moved to Texas, and this is honestly the first time I've had a mailbox out by the curb.
Re: the postmen: That's not entirely true. My sisters ex-boyfriends father (we'll call him Bob) works as a postal worker in the US (I seem to recall it was in Austin, which I beleive is in Texas?). He told us that during his training he was told he was not to deliver post to the property directly, unless it was clear the owner 'allowed' it (i.e. by the presense of a letter slot in their door). If there was no indication then they were to leave the post just inside the property's border. Not knowing much about American towns/cities/whatever, I couldn't tell you if Austin is a city or a rural town (or a cities with rural outskirts), etc. This could be another reason why mailboxes started appearing next to the pavement (sorry - the "curb"). David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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Hmmm, guns are designed for the sole purpose of killing people? I don't think so. Guns are used by police to defend themselves, to stop and apprehend runaway criminals, and to deter people from causing trouble. In the hands of the police, guns are good. In the hands of hunters or target shooters, guns are good too. They allow hunters to catch the prey they're after, or target shooters to experience the thrill of aiming at something, pulling the trigger, and hitting it. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but target shooting is actually fun. In the hands of the common folks guns can be good or bad. If a drug addict or a compulsive gambler has a gun then he/she is more likely to hold up the liquor store, like you said. I'm sure if you or I had a gun, the last thing on our mind would be to use it for that purpose, right? We would probably keep it safely at home in case someone ever tried to invade our property. Your point seems to be that guns should be taken away from everyone because they facilitate crime in the hands of a derranged minority. Isn't that a lot like your boss dictating that all developers are now going to use Java because it's a safer language? I don't think you would agree, right? You'd probably say, "C++ is a language which in the hands of trained professionals can be used to efficiently write software. We shouldn't take it away; rather, we should train everyone to use it correctly and make them responsible for their usage. Thus, if a developer purposely misuses the language to cause havoc, he/she should be fired." That's my take on guns. Give people the freedom to own them but teach them how to properly use them and make them responsible for their actions with it. Regards, Alvaro
Hmmm, guns are designed for the sole purpose of killing people? I don't think so. Really ? You don't think guns were designed to give their designer an advantage in warfare over the guys with the bows and arrows, in the same way that bows & arrows were designed to give an advantage over the pointed stick brigade ? Guns are used by police to defend themselves, to stop and apprehend runaway criminals, and to deter people from causing trouble. In the hands of the police, guns are good. Why does the criminal stop ? Because guns make a loud noise, or because he knows they are an instrument designed to kill people they are pointed at ? In the hands of hunters or target shooters, guns are good too. They allow hunters to catch the prey they're after, or target shooters to experience the thrill of aiming at something, pulling the trigger, and hitting it. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but target shooting is actually fun. I'm sure target shooting is lots of fun. So is Counter Strike. This does not give good reason for arming the community. In the hands of the common folks guns can be good or bad. If a drug addict or a compulsive gambler has a gun then he/she is more likely to hold up the liquor store, like you said. I'm sure if you or I had a gun, the last thing on our mind would be to use it for that purpose, right? We would probably keep it safely at home in case someone ever tried to invade our property. Well, I have an axe for that purpose. It will do nicely, given that in Australia someone who invades my home is unlikely to have a gun. In the US, it's pretty much a given, I'd guess. Your point seems to be that guns should be taken away from everyone because they facilitate crime in the hands of a derranged minority. Isn't that a lot like your boss dictating that all developers are now going to use Java because it's a safer language? I don't think you would agree, right? You'd probably say, "C++ is a language which in the hands of trained professionals can be used to efficiently write software. We shouldn't take it away; rather, we should train everyone to use it correctly and make them responsible for their usage. Thus, if a developer purposely misuses the language to cause havoc, he/she should be fired." Well, I don't know of anyone being killed with Java. My point is that the only 'reason' for the decent portion of society to have guns seems to be that the criminals have them. Isn't it better if guns are harder to get for everyone
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Yep, I got it. :) Jon Sagara "Your schwartz is as big as mine!"
It was more aimed at John (I saw your :laugh: ). Speaking of which, doesn't the :laugh: look like a smilie who's just been shot in the head with a shotgun? ;P David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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> With possible expectation to your right to not to say anything if it incriminates > you (whoever though that one up certainly wanted Justice to prevail...) So, you're saying you'd rather have it like it was in the 1600's when the Court of England *always* found you guilty, but were kind enough to allow you to confess to your crimes? Man, that sounds fair to me. > I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent > your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their > shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their > house is surely taking it a bit too far? "These guys in film" are necessary to the story line, and most of those stories pertain to the past, not present day. Most cities have laws prohibiting firing weapons within city limits, and most states have laws against even displaying a firearm in a threatening manner. Granted, the further out from civilization you get, the less likely it is that the local sheriff is gonna haul you to the pokey for bending the rules a bit, but generally speaking, we don't have the shotgun-stroking toothless redneck to whom you are referring. > Have you ever sat down and wondered why in America the postman leave your mail at > the end of your drive? Not at all. It's called "convenience". Have you ever noticed that the driver's side of the mail jeep is on what we yanks refer to as the "wrong side"? It's so they can just flip down the mailbox door, and slip the mail inside without leaving their vehicle. Not only that, but many rural addresses are usually several hundred yards OFF the road, so I see it as someone doing the mailman a favor by putting a box on a pole down by the road. In ALL of my 45 years, I've lived in houses where the mailbox was either right next to the front door, or was a slot in the door. I recently moved to Texas, and this is honestly the first time I've had a mailbox out by the curb.
Why did you move to Texas? I just visited your website and saw that you lived in San Diego, my favorite place to live. Were there no jobs in San Diego? Sorry if I'm prying but I've been trying to talk my husband into moving there for years. Should I abort mission? :confused: Cathy
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It is funny, Chrisitan, that the NRA's numbers are all propaganda but the "Brady's" numbers are all factual. Its *all* propaganda, dude. It is obviously ridiculous to compare numbers of "gun" deaths out of a population of 270 Million + to war time deaths out of a few hundred thousand troops in combat. Of *course* it's all propoganda, I thought I said as much. But the figures that interested me were gun deaths in the US compared to other countries. The site had figures per 100,000 population, and you guys still 'win' hands down. Virtually every American I know believes they have a God-given right to own whatever kind of weaponry they please and it is a waste of breath to try to convince them otherwise. I don't own a gun myself, and probably never will, yet I fully believe that a free man does not have to ask permission to defend himself, and I like knowing that, if needed, I could avail myself of weaponry as I please. This is the problem - you have a culture that can't see the issue of human rights beyond your own right to see the world through gun sights if and when you desire. So while the school shootings and workplace shootings continue, the odds of the situation coming under control are pretty much zip. Could disarming the American public bring gun deaths down? Well, duh! Well, thank you. This is my sole point. But people who are determined to kill each other will find a way to do it even if they don't have guns. Timothy McViegh killed, what, 180 something - never fired a shot. Yet, you could also bring those numbers down not by getting rid of the 2nd amendment but by getting rid of the 1st. When I was a kid people were heavily armed, and far fewer people were being murdered, because we were a more moral nation (in that regard). The thought of shooting your classmates was simply not an option. Today, after 40 years of the "if it feels good, do it" mentality, people are far more inclined to solve their problems with guns. Shut Hollywood up for a few years, teach Chrisitan morality in school again, and I can assure you those numbers *will* go down. To me, as an American, one option is as onerous as the other. Sorry, are you saying that teaching respect for life is an onerous idea ? I said last time we discussed this that the 'right' to bear arms was given to a nation with totally different values, a nation more likely to be able to be trusted with that right. I am a trained combat officer in the U.S. Army (inactive), I have hunted on a regular basis m
Let me make myself perfectly clear. By onerous I meant the abandonment of either the first or the second amendment to our constitution not the teaching of respect for life. I have no passion for guns, don't own one, never wanted to, don't belong to the NRA, don't belong to a militia or other such groups. In truth, guns scare me, but not as much as government does. I do, however, passionately believe that my government should respect the constitutional constraints placed upon it. I also passionately believe that I am under no obligation to adher to the views or opinions or legal dictates of any global authority. I only start getting a little nervous when comments are made that seem to imply that, as an American, I am so obligated. When that happens, I start wondering if the black helicopter crowd might have a point, and maybe it is time I went out and bought an assault rifle. So IMHO: 1)Banning "assualt" rifles does little to make the world a safer place. My children could be killed just as easily by a deer rifle, a shot gun or a pipe bomb, or a car, or any number of means available to someone trully intent on harming them. 2)If you don't have a society based upon some sort of grassroots principles of morality, people are going to kill each other in greater numbers. Guns or not. 3)We *do* buy security at the price of liberty. 4)We should fear government and it should fear us. 5)The Civil War taught us that the government *should* be scared of a bunch of well armed rednecks.:rose:
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Re: the postmen: That's not entirely true. My sisters ex-boyfriends father (we'll call him Bob) works as a postal worker in the US (I seem to recall it was in Austin, which I beleive is in Texas?). He told us that during his training he was told he was not to deliver post to the property directly, unless it was clear the owner 'allowed' it (i.e. by the presense of a letter slot in their door). If there was no indication then they were to leave the post just inside the property's border. Not knowing much about American towns/cities/whatever, I couldn't tell you if Austin is a city or a rural town (or a cities with rural outskirts), etc. This could be another reason why mailboxes started appearing next to the pavement (sorry - the "curb"). David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
Austin is the capitol of Texas. I have no idea why they put post boxes on the curb here, but it's the only place I've lived where they did it. I'm sure that part of that rule is so that the mailmen aren't mauled by dogs or fall victim to the average American's scattered claymore anti-personnel mines that are planted in the front yard, or to avoid litigation because the mailman stepped on one of the delicate endangered species of animal or plant life. '
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Hmmm, guns are designed for the sole purpose of killing people? I don't think so. Guns are used by police to defend themselves, to stop and apprehend runaway criminals, and to deter people from causing trouble. In the hands of the police, guns are good. In the hands of hunters or target shooters, guns are good too. They allow hunters to catch the prey they're after, or target shooters to experience the thrill of aiming at something, pulling the trigger, and hitting it. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but target shooting is actually fun. In the hands of the common folks guns can be good or bad. If a drug addict or a compulsive gambler has a gun then he/she is more likely to hold up the liquor store, like you said. I'm sure if you or I had a gun, the last thing on our mind would be to use it for that purpose, right? We would probably keep it safely at home in case someone ever tried to invade our property. Your point seems to be that guns should be taken away from everyone because they facilitate crime in the hands of a derranged minority. Isn't that a lot like your boss dictating that all developers are now going to use Java because it's a safer language? I don't think you would agree, right? You'd probably say, "C++ is a language which in the hands of trained professionals can be used to efficiently write software. We shouldn't take it away; rather, we should train everyone to use it correctly and make them responsible for their usage. Thus, if a developer purposely misuses the language to cause havoc, he/she should be fired." That's my take on guns. Give people the freedom to own them but teach them how to properly use them and make them responsible for their actions with it. Regards, Alvaro
Alvaro, You were almost there, but fell at the last hurdle. Your analogy is quite good, but you just took a sudden turn at the last minute. You are right - no one is advocating the complete removeal of guns from all levels and forms of society. Also, proper training and resposibility should be part of gun ownership. I think you need to slightly modify your final statement. Instead of : "C++ is a language which in the hands of trained professionals can be used to efficiently write software. We shouldn't take it away; rather, we should train everyone to use it correctly and make them responsible for their usage. Thus, if a developer purposely misuses the language to cause havoc, he/she should be fired." It should read : "C++ is a language which in the hands of trained professionals can be used to efficiently write software. We should take it away from those who don't understand it, don;t need it, and have easy access to safe alternatives. We should train those who have need for it's power to use it correctly and make them responsible for their usage. Thus, if a trained and licensed developer purposely misuses the language to cause havoc, he/she should be fired." Really, I must admit I cannot understand how you can make the argument that (a) you admit it is dangerous in the wrong hands, and requires skill, training and a responsible attitude to be used correctly, and then state that (b) anyone should be allowed to have it, and it's up to the owner to decide whether they meet the criteria, and wheterh they will get training or not. What could be the problem with a society that says "No guns as a general rule. Prove yourself capable, demonstrate a need (shooting cans in the backyard doesn't count as 'need'), and accept responsibility for your actions, and you can have a gun". At the moment, America says - "you've got the money, we've got a gun for you". There seems to be quite a distance between these two statements.
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Hmmm, guns are designed for the sole purpose of killing people? I don't think so. Really ? You don't think guns were designed to give their designer an advantage in warfare over the guys with the bows and arrows, in the same way that bows & arrows were designed to give an advantage over the pointed stick brigade ? Guns are used by police to defend themselves, to stop and apprehend runaway criminals, and to deter people from causing trouble. In the hands of the police, guns are good. Why does the criminal stop ? Because guns make a loud noise, or because he knows they are an instrument designed to kill people they are pointed at ? In the hands of hunters or target shooters, guns are good too. They allow hunters to catch the prey they're after, or target shooters to experience the thrill of aiming at something, pulling the trigger, and hitting it. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but target shooting is actually fun. I'm sure target shooting is lots of fun. So is Counter Strike. This does not give good reason for arming the community. In the hands of the common folks guns can be good or bad. If a drug addict or a compulsive gambler has a gun then he/she is more likely to hold up the liquor store, like you said. I'm sure if you or I had a gun, the last thing on our mind would be to use it for that purpose, right? We would probably keep it safely at home in case someone ever tried to invade our property. Well, I have an axe for that purpose. It will do nicely, given that in Australia someone who invades my home is unlikely to have a gun. In the US, it's pretty much a given, I'd guess. Your point seems to be that guns should be taken away from everyone because they facilitate crime in the hands of a derranged minority. Isn't that a lot like your boss dictating that all developers are now going to use Java because it's a safer language? I don't think you would agree, right? You'd probably say, "C++ is a language which in the hands of trained professionals can be used to efficiently write software. We shouldn't take it away; rather, we should train everyone to use it correctly and make them responsible for their usage. Thus, if a developer purposely misuses the language to cause havoc, he/she should be fired." Well, I don't know of anyone being killed with Java. My point is that the only 'reason' for the decent portion of society to have guns seems to be that the criminals have them. Isn't it better if guns are harder to get for everyone
You don't think guns were designed to give their designer an advantage in warfare over the guys with the bows and arrows, in the same way that bows & arrows were designed to give an advantage over the pointed stick brigade ? Yes, guns definitely provide an advantage. That's it. They're not designed to kill people. They're designed for anyone wishing to fire a projectile at high speed to do so with minimum effort. Whether that projectile is aimed at a human heart, a human leg, a rabbit, a snake, or just hung on a shelf, is another story. Why does the criminal stop ? Because guns make a loud noise, or because he knows they are an instrument designed to kill people they are pointed at ? I haven't studied criminal behavior but I would assume that the criminal stops because he's afraid of what the gun could do to him. It could kill him or just injure him -- either way he would eventually have to stop so might as well avoid making things worse for himself. Whatever the reason, the gun in this case is a good thing, don't you think? I'm sure target shooting is lots of fun. So is Counter Strike. This does not give good reason for arming the community. If the community can't get their hands on Counter Strike but is responsible with guns and loves to shoot targets, why not? Let them have their fun. I don't think anyone wants to "arm the community". I think it's a few members of the community who seek to arm themselves, for whatever reason. As long as they do their "arming" responsibly, why not? Well, I have an axe for that purpose. It will do nicely, given that in Australia someone who invades my home is unlikely to have a gun. In the US, it's pretty much a given, I'd guess. Well an axe is good, but wouldn't a gun be better? You never know when an American may come around... :) Isn't it better if guns are harder to get for everyone ? Yes, we shouln't just sell a gun to anyone, and as far as I know, we don't. There's a seven-day background check on everyone who buys a gun in the US. The statistics seem to indicate that it's working great, too. Well, if it's not working then let's find a way to fix it without resorting to drastic measures. How about making people take a mini-course on gun responsibility before they can purchase one? There's got to be a way to improve things without treating everyone like a potential criminal. Regards, Alvaro
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> With possible expectation to your right to not to say anything if it incriminates > you (whoever though that one up certainly wanted Justice to prevail...) So, you're saying you'd rather have it like it was in the 1600's when the Court of England *always* found you guilty, but were kind enough to allow you to confess to your crimes? Man, that sounds fair to me. > I can understand the need to protect yourself, your family and to a certain extent > your property, but those guys in the films who sit on their porches stroking their > shotguns shouting "Geeeeeaaat off of muy lannnd" at everybody that walks past their > house is surely taking it a bit too far? "These guys in film" are necessary to the story line, and most of those stories pertain to the past, not present day. Most cities have laws prohibiting firing weapons within city limits, and most states have laws against even displaying a firearm in a threatening manner. Granted, the further out from civilization you get, the less likely it is that the local sheriff is gonna haul you to the pokey for bending the rules a bit, but generally speaking, we don't have the shotgun-stroking toothless redneck to whom you are referring. > Have you ever sat down and wondered why in America the postman leave your mail at > the end of your drive? Not at all. It's called "convenience". Have you ever noticed that the driver's side of the mail jeep is on what we yanks refer to as the "wrong side"? It's so they can just flip down the mailbox door, and slip the mail inside without leaving their vehicle. Not only that, but many rural addresses are usually several hundred yards OFF the road, so I see it as someone doing the mailman a favor by putting a box on a pole down by the road. In ALL of my 45 years, I've lived in houses where the mailbox was either right next to the front door, or was a slot in the door. I recently moved to Texas, and this is honestly the first time I've had a mailbox out by the curb.
