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Circumcision

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  • M Member 96

    What a wierd bunch of responses you got! Out of all the male friends I have ever had in my entire life as far as I know only one was un-circumcised and he has zero opinions on the matter. Where are all these irate people coming from, what kind of personal failings are they trying to blame on such an innocuous procedure. Here (in Canada, well in B.C. anyway) it's generally accepted that all children will be circumcised. I am and am quite happy with the results. I think the wierd rhetoric you are hearing is completely out to lunch. Some are claiming it's maiming or worse, hogwash! What a bunch of ridiculous statements. If you fail to do it you are in effect putting off what will be quick short term pain now for what he will (assuming he's enlightened) have to go through later as an adult. We have no need for our appendix either, is it maimimg a person to remove it? Speaking as a circumcised person, the thought of smegma or whatever is just disgusting, what kind of cruel parent would sentence their child to that for life? Get him circumcised, ask any doctor! The responses you got here for the most part are not based on logic, they are based on emotion only. On another topic entirely, what you really do have to watch out for is the breast feeding nazis and marketing leeches that will be all over you shortly after birth. Decide in advance about the breast feeding thing, because if your hospital is anything like our local ones you will get some crazy eyed ladies bugging the hell out of you to commit to breast feeding. They put up signs all over the maternity ward (no, the hospital and it's staff do *not* put up most of the signs you see in a hospital, it's people with axes to grind). Secondarily you will be pressured by smily marketers disguised as something else trying to get you to sign up for a lot of great free stuff for you and your baby. If you really press hard enough and for long enough you will eventually discover that what they are in effect doing is attempting to sign up your baby for a lifetime of marketing. To hard core marketers there is nothing more precious than a newborn. They firmly believe that what a child is raised on will affect them for life so they are incredibly interested in marketing directly to your baby via the mother. When weird strangers start popping in and asking how your baby is etc etc kick them the hell out immediately!!!!

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    Paul Watson
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    John Cardinal wrote: the wierd rhetoric That about sums this up... regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "

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    • B Brit

      Ryan Roberts wrote: The procedure is admittedly less severe than clitordectomy, and generaly takes place at a younger age. But it remains an unnecessary mutiliation of the genitalia to conform to cultural norms. Simply because some cultural norms are more familiar(and in some countries widely adopted) to western eyes does not excuse the practice. Female circumcision is opposed because it severely restricts the ability of a woman to feel pleasure during sex. As far as I've seen, male circumcision (and I did hear about a study which tried to compare circumcised and uncircumcised male's subjective experience of sex) has no significant effect on a man's pleasure. Uncircumcised males do not experience more pleasure than circumcised males and they don't, on average, climax any earlier. If you want a fair comparison, you should compare female circumcision with the rare male circumcision that goes bad. A while back, I read about a male who, through a batched circumcision, had the entire head removed. He was never able to climax during sex. I would consider that to be more comparible to female circumcision. But, that's not what male circumcision is. ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]

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      Ryan Roberts
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      Not all female circumscision is clitordectomy, but I agree with your point. I retract "hideous", "anachronistic" or "unnecessary" would probably have been better choices. Must be the coffee. Ryan.

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      • PJ ArendsP PJ Arends

        Where's Martin Marvinski when you need him? He used to rant on and on in this very forum about the evils of circumcision. The foreskin is there for a reason, and there is absolutely no good reason to mutilate your son by removing it, so don't do it.

        "You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ???  You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!

        Honoured as one of The Most Helpful Members of 2004

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        Jim Crafton
        wrote on last edited by
        #43

        PJ Arends wrote: Martin Marvinski Hey I remember him I think! Isn't that the guy who talked about all sorts if intensely personaly stuff, things like masturbation, sex prefs, etc? ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!

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        • P Paul Watson

          For hundreds of years it was recommend that you make the room of a sick person as airtight, dark and dank as possible. They believed it kept ill-humours out. Turns out they were dead wrong, literally. Masturbation made you mad, blind, deaf and dumb. Sick people were bled to within and inch of their life to get the sickness out of them. Some truth in it but largely a very bad thing to do. Tradition and hearsay is definitly not the way to go when deciding on an operation for your baby. As mentioned mistakes happen, a penis can get destroyed in the process. But maybe it does reduce cancer risks long term. Point being; Find some studies on the matter and come to a well-informed consensus rather than doing something because your dad did and his dad before him. And many males have complained bitterly about having being circumsised. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "

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          Jim Crafton
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          Paul Watson wrote: And many males have complained bitterly about having being circumsised. Uhm, who exactly? Unless the operation/procedure went wrong? Aside from the possibility of a mistake, it seems like kind of a none issue to me. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!

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          • J Jim Crafton

            Paul Watson wrote: And many males have complained bitterly about having being circumsised. Uhm, who exactly? Unless the operation/procedure went wrong? Aside from the possibility of a mistake, it seems like kind of a none issue to me. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!

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            Paul Watson
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            Glad you asked, there are even organisations against it. MAC. DOC. NOHARMM. Barbaric practice. You can even get your foreskin reconstructed (that would make great spam). So lots of people are vocally against it. But please, I am not passionately for or against it. It's all a bit bizarre. regards, Paul Watson South Africa The Code Project Pope Pius II said "The only prescription is more cowbell. "

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            • A Anna Jayne Metcalfe

              I believe that no infant should be circumcised without their informed consent unless there is an overriding medical reason to do so. Believe me you'll be doing him a favour if you defer this decision until he's 18 and let him decide for himself. :rose: Megan Forbes wrote: ...that accidents happen on babies each year which result in the child being raised as a girl (is this really possible in the 21st century?!) - obviously an unacceptable situation if true. I suspect you're referring to the case of David Reimer[^], who tragically took his own life last year, having been raised as a female after a botched circumcision operation. Although the "nurture over nature" theories of Money (the psychiatrist responsible) have been well and truly discredited now, his legacy remains...intersexed children are still routinely operated on without their consent to ensure they appear as either boys or girls. A friend of mine actually remembers going through such a procedure (at age 4) to make her appear male, but unfortunately they chose the wrong sex. She's now living quite happily as a woman, and wishes the doctors had left her alone until she was old enough to make up her own mind. Although the signs are that that early surgical intervention is likely to become less acceptable within the medical profession in time, the fact that it still happens at all is downright scary. Given that, there's no guarantee that the Reimer case couldn't happen again if inexperienced medical staff (or those unaware of current gender theories) were involved. That's a possibility which makes me shudder, as such a child is likely to endure a life of pain and torment unless they are lucky enough to find enlightened help. Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.

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              Edbert P
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: I believe that infant should be circumcised without their informed consent I believe you meant shouldn't, Anna. I'm glad my parents didn't though, because I've never had problems with being uncircumcised. Edbert

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              • E Edbert P

                Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: I believe that infant should be circumcised without their informed consent I believe you meant shouldn't, Anna. I'm glad my parents didn't though, because I've never had problems with being uncircumcised. Edbert

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                Anna Jayne Metcalfe
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                Edbert P. wrote: I believe you meant shouldn't, Anna. Oops! It should have read "no infant...", but a broken <b> tag stopped it appearing. Fixed now. :-O Edbert P. wrote: I'm glad my parents didn't though, because I've never had problems with being uncircumcised. Given what happened to me in 2003, I'd have been pretty annoyed if I'd have been circumcised at birth! ; Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.

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                • R Ryan Roberts

                  The first known drawing of a circumcision is on the wall of a 6th Dynasty tomb at Sakkara, Egypt, about 2400 BC, or 4400 years ago. Presumably, the practice began long before that. It is therefore a primitive blood ritual, and has no place in modern medicine Far to much information about foreskins here[^]. The excuses given for it are many, one of the first 'medical' reasons was to prevent masterbation(therefore insanity, drunkeness and countless other forms of moral weakness). Its a hideous practice. Would you consider doing it if you had a daughter? On a side note - didn't Sweeden attempt to ban male circumsision recently? Bloody brave move.. Ryan.

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                  Jorgen Sigvardsson
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  Ryan Roberts wrote: On a side note - didn't Sweeden attempt to ban male circumsision recently? Bloody brave move.. Maybe they did, I never took notice. :) The current laws says that the following conditions must be met before a circumcision may be performed: * circumciser must be a legitimate doctor or a (religious) specialist * circumcisee's parents must want to perform it * circumcisee must not object (too young to speak = no objection! :mad:) * circumcisee must've been given pain killers (there's a better word than "pain killers" in this context) -- My name in Katakana is ヨルゲン. My name in German is Jörgen. My name in Mandarin/Kanji is 乔尔根 西格瓦德森. I blog too now[^]

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                  • T Tomaz Stih 0

                    I propose you add reducing oral sexual pleasure to your argument list against circumcision. :rolleyes: I would decide against it. If there will be any troubles, you can always cut it later. :sigh: Tomaž

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                    Jorgen Sigvardsson
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    Tomaž Štih wrote: I propose you add reducing oral sexual pleasure to your argument list against circumcision. How would you know the difference if you were circumcised as a child? Unless of course... -- My name in Katakana is ヨルゲン. My name in German is Jörgen. My name in Mandarin/Kanji is 乔尔根 西格瓦德森. I blog too now[^]

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                    • A Alvaro Mendez

                      I'm for circumcision. I didn't have it done when I was born and I always had hygeine issues. It was painful having to pull the foreskin all the way back to keep it clean and rid of yucky white secretions. Then at age 11 I had a circumcision and these problems vanished. Regards, Alvaro

                      You know what they say about arguing over the Internet...

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                      Jorgen Sigvardsson
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      Alvaro Mendez wrote: Then at age 11 I had a circumcision and these problems vanished. Heh. I started washing my pecker instead. :rolleyes: -- My name in Katakana is ヨルゲン. My name in German is Jörgen. My name in Mandarin/Kanji is 乔尔根 西格瓦德森. I blog too now[^]

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                      • D David Wulff

                        If you are worried about cancers that if they do come about won't form until the mid to later part of your sons life then leave the descision up to him when he is old enough to decide. (Assuming it doesn't become a prohibited form of mutilation in the mean time, which it eventually will.) Being a parent that doesn't really help you much, but ultimately you are going to have to let go one day. Penile cancer should be the last of your concerns though, it is almost completely avoidable with care, keeping him out of dirty inner city areas during the first sixteen years of his life will do more for his quality of life than any cosmetic surgery will. Circumcision was (and still is somewhat) popular in the States because propper penile hygeine requires you to - shock horror - touch your dick and that is taboo. Realistically, with propper daily hygeine and only twenty seconds under the shower it isn't necessary, but I'd suggest you get your husband to show him how to go about it when it is practically possible for your son to do so. To wander a little into specifics, smegma (that white stuff that was mentioned above and the core ingredient of every Red Dwarf joke) is necessary for a healthy penis. It comes from the foreskin not the penis so if you cut it off... you do without. It acts like both tears to keep the head clean and a protein/repair wash similar to that your eyes get when you're sleeping. It is also an anti-bacterial agent that helps prevent the nasty bacteria your body has just pissed away from coming back in again. What boys typical experience before puberty is not the same stuff - that's dead skins cells from the seperation of the foreskin from their penis and sebum which decreases over time - that is why it would hurt like hell if they tried to clean under their foreskin (they'd basically be ripping the layers apart, and causing all sorts of nasty infections). Thankfully I missed that experience myself! In fact, before they start producing smegma it is best to leave it be because they will be more prone to irritation and infection by their own urine until it starts getting produced. (At the very least if you do get your son circumscised *always* change his nappy/diaper as soon as he wets himself because he won't have that natural protection against the bacteria anymore. Over time it will dull his senses because his body will have fought one too many wars againt all the nasty bacter

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                        Jorgen Sigvardsson
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        David Wulff wrote: If you're still not convinced, foreskin is there to protect the bit underneath from damage so if your son ever decided to become a nudist living in the forest he might run into some difficulties with all those brambles... For fuck's sake man! I have neighbors.. I can't be laughing out loud this time of night! :laugh: :laugh: -- My name in Katakana is ヨルゲン. My name in German is Jörgen. My name in Mandarin/Kanji is 乔尔根 西格瓦德森. I blog too now[^]

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                        • D Dan Bennett

                          JoeSox wrote: I would hate for him to desire a circumcision later in life Is that likely? Why on earth would he? :wtf:

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                          Jorgen Sigvardsson
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #52

                          Some people find a good whipping pleasurable. I suppose some could find a good circumcision pleasurable. :~ -- My name in Katakana is ヨルゲン. My name in German is Jörgen. My name in Mandarin/Kanji is 乔尔根 西格瓦德森. I blog too now[^]

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                          • M Megan Forbes

                            Having been told that the baby we're expecting in May is a little boy this is obviously a question we need to resolve in our own minds, where the outcome hopefully answers "what is best for the child". Neither mine nor Brendan's families have ever had their sons circumcised, but as we're more concerned with health than cosmetic issues this alone would not be a reason for avoiding it. We first started to look into the pro's and con's in SA where it seems that it is pushed as a good choice. The literature our SA doctor provided us with stated things like hygeine and a good preventative of penile cancer in later life. However, I'm pretty sure that one of the reasons it's recommended to parents over there is an attempt to slow down deaths and amputations at "initiation schools" for teenagers in future years. In the UK there doesn't seem to be too much of an opinion (at least at our hospital) beyond "why bother". Not exactly a strong argument when taking a decision on part of your childs future. However, after looking into it a little further there do seem to be people vehemently opposed to it. Some claim that the preventative effect for penile cancer has never been proven, and that accidents happen on babies each year which result in the child being raised as a girl (is this really possible in the 21st century?!) - obviously an unacceptable situation if true. Right now we are steering towards leaving the baby uncut, especially as it seems that hygeine will not be affected. Apparently the foreskin should never be pushed back until the boy is old enough to do it himself, and until that age it's not possible for dirt to get trapped underneath anyway as it hasn't fully separated yet. Are there any true arguments for having this operation done? Would we be letting our son down by not having the op? As most of you here are male, and many are fathers I'd be very interested to hear any sides to the argument which should be weighed up before a final decision is taken. Just one of many confusing decisions when embarking upon the journey to parenthood :)

                            Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
                            Meg's World - Blog Photography

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                            peterchen
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            Don't. Just teach him to wash his penis thoroughly.

                            Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
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                            • J Jorgen Sigvardsson

                              Alvaro Mendez wrote: Then at age 11 I had a circumcision and these problems vanished. Heh. I started washing my pecker instead. :rolleyes: -- My name in Katakana is ヨルゲン. My name in German is Jörgen. My name in Mandarin/Kanji is 乔尔根 西格瓦德森. I blog too now[^]

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                              Alvaro Mendez
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I started washing my pecker instead. Well, washing it was literally a pain in the pecker for me. :) I had the circumcision at that age because I happened to also need another operation in that area so my mom and I figured it would be convenient to kill two birds with one stone. Regards, Alvaro

                              You know what they say about arguing over the Internet...

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                              • S Shog9 0

                                Megan Forbes wrote: Why? Was he a doctor in his spare time or something? If i remember correctly, he felt that his sex life wasn't all it could be, and blamed it on his parents' decision. Given that he was also big into Neuro-Linguistic Programming as a technique to pick up women, i have a feeling he was mistaken... X|

                                Shog9

                                I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...

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                                Colin Angus Mackay
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                Shog9 wrote: he was also big into Neuro-Linguistic Programming as a technique to pick up women You have to be kidding me. :laugh:

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                                • B Bassam Abdul Baki

                                  Perhaps, but like I said, I've heard more good than bad about circumsision. Is this any worse than getting your baby girl's ears pierced just because her mother likes putting earings on her? Sorry ladies, not trying to say all of you are like that. However, traditionally, it's been said that circumsizing a kid is better than not. Maybe there is very little chance of getting cancer or any disease these days with it, but it hasn't proven to have any side effects, especially since every male I know had one shortly after birth and none have ever complained about it. "For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you would never have considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence." - Q (Star Trek: The Next Generation) ^ Blog

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                                  Colin Angus Mackay
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote: traditionally, it's been said that circumsizing a kid is better than not. I've never heard that. It must be a cultural thing rather than based in fact.

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                                  • A aplope

                                    We had our first son circumcised and plan to have our second son (due in about a month) circumcised. We had no real opinion on the matter with our first until our birth class instructor told us about men going through basic training having to take up to a week to recover from circumcision. Seems all the training and such led to not being able to keep the organ clean enough and getting lots of infections. So the men would then elect to have the circumcision which from what I have gathered is more traumatic later in life than it is for an infant. Plus, you can't really count on little boys having great hygenic practices. Also knew a women married to an uncircumcised man. She said she had lots of yeast infections and female issues because of her husband. :suss: Knowing what I know of this woman now, this information may be circumspect, but still might be true. Something to consider. Given the right pain medications and such, I don't believe there is any harm to the boy to have him circumcised. As for reducing sexual performance, interest, etc., I find it hard to believe from what I observe in society and my own marital relations. Good luck! Pegmeister

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                                    Colin Angus Mackay
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    aplope wrote: Also knew a women married to an uncircumcised man. She said she had lots of yeast infections and female issues because of her husband. Sounds like a hygene problem. Like David said above - it takes 20 seconds in the shower per day to solve the problem.

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                                    • M Member 96

                                      What a wierd bunch of responses you got! Out of all the male friends I have ever had in my entire life as far as I know only one was un-circumcised and he has zero opinions on the matter. Where are all these irate people coming from, what kind of personal failings are they trying to blame on such an innocuous procedure. Here (in Canada, well in B.C. anyway) it's generally accepted that all children will be circumcised. I am and am quite happy with the results. I think the wierd rhetoric you are hearing is completely out to lunch. Some are claiming it's maiming or worse, hogwash! What a bunch of ridiculous statements. If you fail to do it you are in effect putting off what will be quick short term pain now for what he will (assuming he's enlightened) have to go through later as an adult. We have no need for our appendix either, is it maimimg a person to remove it? Speaking as a circumcised person, the thought of smegma or whatever is just disgusting, what kind of cruel parent would sentence their child to that for life? Get him circumcised, ask any doctor! The responses you got here for the most part are not based on logic, they are based on emotion only. On another topic entirely, what you really do have to watch out for is the breast feeding nazis and marketing leeches that will be all over you shortly after birth. Decide in advance about the breast feeding thing, because if your hospital is anything like our local ones you will get some crazy eyed ladies bugging the hell out of you to commit to breast feeding. They put up signs all over the maternity ward (no, the hospital and it's staff do *not* put up most of the signs you see in a hospital, it's people with axes to grind). Secondarily you will be pressured by smily marketers disguised as something else trying to get you to sign up for a lot of great free stuff for you and your baby. If you really press hard enough and for long enough you will eventually discover that what they are in effect doing is attempting to sign up your baby for a lifetime of marketing. To hard core marketers there is nothing more precious than a newborn. They firmly believe that what a child is raised on will affect them for life so they are incredibly interested in marketing directly to your baby via the mother. When weird strangers start popping in and asking how your baby is etc etc kick them the hell out immediately!!!!

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                                      Colin Angus Mackay
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      John Cardinal wrote: We have no need for our appendix either, is it maimimg a person to remove it? I have had my appendix removed. But only because I needed to have it removed. I would still have my appendix if it wasn't necessary to remove it. I don't see the point of removing parts of the body unless it is necessary.

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                                      • W wrykyn

                                        Paul Watson wrote: I'm no doctor Neither am I :) I just read some stuff about it since I promised my sister I would look into it about a year ago when she had her son. That's what the websites said. I might be slightly mistaken about the time frame though. "One of the Georges," said Psmith, "I forget which, once said that a certain number of hours' sleep a day--I cannot recall for the moment how many--made a man something, which for the time being has slipped my memory."

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                                        Megan Forbes
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        From what I've read, you are actually correct. Don't ask me why though.

                                        Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
                                        Meg's World - Blog Photography

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                                        • A aplope

                                          We had our first son circumcised and plan to have our second son (due in about a month) circumcised. We had no real opinion on the matter with our first until our birth class instructor told us about men going through basic training having to take up to a week to recover from circumcision. Seems all the training and such led to not being able to keep the organ clean enough and getting lots of infections. So the men would then elect to have the circumcision which from what I have gathered is more traumatic later in life than it is for an infant. Plus, you can't really count on little boys having great hygenic practices. Also knew a women married to an uncircumcised man. She said she had lots of yeast infections and female issues because of her husband. :suss: Knowing what I know of this woman now, this information may be circumspect, but still might be true. Something to consider. Given the right pain medications and such, I don't believe there is any harm to the boy to have him circumcised. As for reducing sexual performance, interest, etc., I find it hard to believe from what I observe in society and my own marital relations. Good luck! Pegmeister

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                                          Megan Forbes
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #60

                                          Thanks for the reply aplope - it's interesting especially to talk to other parents having to make the same decisions. However, I don't think you should include the experience of your married woman friend when weighing it up. I say this as a happy, infection free woman married to an uncircumcised man :).

                                          Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
                                          Meg's World - Blog Photography

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