Computer Science
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
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I studied Electronic & Electrical Engineering at the University of Surrey. Although we studied a Computer Engineering as part of the course, the topics presented were more hardware orientated than software (C++ and UML didn't even exist in 1985!), and although interesting at the time, aren't directly relevant now. We were taught Pascal (I already knew it :) ), Z-80 assembler (ditto - I used to write CP/M system software for fun :rolleyes: ) and Algol-68 :mad:. For some reason (read: one lecturer's prejudice) we weren't taught C!! Fortunately, I'd already taught myself (using a public domain floating point Z-80 C compiler...). With the exception of a UML course 4 years back, everything else I've picked up is self-taught. The way I see it, if you can learn, you will learn - courses just give you a leg-up. :) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Hi Fazlul. I am also an electrical engineer by degree (Bachelors from ITT Tech in Seattle), but moved to programming when I discovered that it was more to my liking. I had two full quarters of DOS based C++ programming (Borland Turbo C++ 3) during my time there. On my own, I've learned Win32 C/C++ programming, as well as Visual Basic, ASP, HTML, XML/XSL, and currently, .NET and Palm programming. Do I have a CS degree? Nope. Just an unquenchable desire to learn as much as I can. :) Jamie Nordmeyer Portland, Oregon, USA
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. While I agree that a degree is valuable, so is experience. When I was just out of college with a CS degree but little professional experience, I know one can feel a bit like a leper. In other words, interview = degree + experience But I agree. I have a CS degree, and I'm glad I do. Craig Dodge This message printed on 100% recycled electrons.
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Sad but true. Many a time in the last few years, all the good jobs have been closed to me because of my lack of a degree. Which I think is a crock of ****, I have 8 years MFC Experience / 12 years commercial development. Yet they won't even talk to me. Michael :-)
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I think formal education definitely helps, but not in the ways you might expect. I learned a lot of "nuts and bolts" stuff on the job. Things like MFC, Perl, Windows programming, etc. I learned C in high school, and although I did learn C++ in college, I certainly could have learned it by a book, practicing, etc. Where having a formal education (for me, undergraduate CS degree) helped were in a few aspects. 1. Teamwork. We had several classes that involved parners or group efforts. And most of the time, we were allowed, sometimes encouraged, to work together on homework assignments (but not exams... :) ) 2. Fundamentals, like code design, maintainability, etc. I find that people without a CS background tend to be weak in these areas (especially maintainability.) 3. Connections and networking. Even still, a lot of getting a job is who you know. The more people you meet, the more opportunities you have, plain and simple. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I've been coding since 12 years old when my Father took a Microbee (Australian) computer home from work and I got to play around with that in Logo. Then I got my own and learn't Basic, at 13 had a program published in a magazine that produced a random maze. Since then programming for fun until 18 when I went to University to study Computer Science, and yes - I belive the ideas they teach are very useful, and every programmer should go to University, but its best to have programmed before University. Generally speaking, but not always true, those people who never programmed before university didn't get the intuitive feel for code but could produce it anyway. So while they can produce code, the code that is produced is often bloated and over engineered. People don't seem to realise that for every line of code produced your going to have to go back and change it later, if you produce 600,000 lines of code in a project, it becomes near impossible to change. It seems attractive to some people to produce a large amount of code as it seems like a lot of work is getting done. I see code as a lever, the smaller it is to get the job done the better. Basically coding has to be a part of you, you have to live it, however you get to that state doesn't really matter. Philip
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Sad but true. Many a time in the last few years, all the good jobs have been closed to me because of my lack of a degree. Which I think is a crock of ****, I have 8 years MFC Experience / 12 years commercial development. Yet they won't even talk to me. Michael :-)
That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
I have often thought of going and doing a theology ... Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. or cosmology degree Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. That may sound logical, but most corporate HR folks think differently. They want to see both of our degrees and experiences together. I know it sucks, but that's the reality, especially in this tight IT market. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. That may sound logical, but most corporate HR folks think differently. They want to see both of our degrees and experiences together. I know it sucks, but that's the reality, especially in this tight IT market. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Hmmm...in my company the developers do the interviewing. The managers generally defer to our gut feeling rather than what's on the CV. HR? We don't have such a thing. :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. While I agree that a degree is valuable, so is experience. When I was just out of college with a CS degree but little professional experience, I know one can feel a bit like a leper. In other words, interview = degree + experience But I agree. I have a CS degree, and I'm glad I do. Craig Dodge This message printed on 100% recycled electrons.
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
i did. it helped. i know a lot of useful things about CS that people who didn't get degrees in CS don't know. does that make me a better programmer than those who didn't get degrees in CS? in many cases, yes. but some people are just gifted and school or not they are simply better than me. i don't believe you have to know anything about design patterns to be a good programmer. you might have to know about that stuff to be a good architect, but that's not the same as programming, once your development team is sufficiently large. to be a good programmer, you have to know the language well enough to choose efficient and appropriate ways of doing things. you have to know common algorithms, common techniques, common ways of doing things correctly. you have to understand the role of a programmer in an organization (programmers != marketing != design != management). you have to know how to work on a team. you have to know how to read and implement a specification, etc.. you can learn a lot of it on your own, or you can learn it in school. either way, there's a lot to learn if you want to be good (good being "better than competent"). a CS degree will (should) give you a bit of all of that, but you'll get a lot more of it in the workplace. -c
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Sure is....but in my first job (I was a sponsored student in my final year) they didn't even bother asking whether I got the degree until I'd been there a couple of months... I suspect this varies from country to country. Is the US more hung up on this than the UK I wonder? Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
But if you ever find yourself looking for a job again... But getting a degree now is questionable. I was more talking about the kids just coming out of highschool. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
But if you ever find yourself looking for a job again... Fair point, many times I'd like to be a 9 to 5er once again. I was more talking about the kids just coming out of highschool. Military service is also a good option but getting a degree is probably better for the HR departments, So I agree. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))That's one up on the profanity filter... ;P Do Yanks and Aussies even know what bollocks means? :laugh: Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
i did. it helped. i know a lot of useful things about CS that people who didn't get degrees in CS don't know. does that make me a better programmer than those who didn't get degrees in CS? in many cases, yes. but some people are just gifted and school or not they are simply better than me. i don't believe you have to know anything about design patterns to be a good programmer. you might have to know about that stuff to be a good architect, but that's not the same as programming, once your development team is sufficiently large. to be a good programmer, you have to know the language well enough to choose efficient and appropriate ways of doing things. you have to know common algorithms, common techniques, common ways of doing things correctly. you have to understand the role of a programmer in an organization (programmers != marketing != design != management). you have to know how to work on a team. you have to know how to read and implement a specification, etc.. you can learn a lot of it on your own, or you can learn it in school. either way, there's a lot to learn if you want to be good (good being "better than competent"). a CS degree will (should) give you a bit of all of that, but you'll get a lot more of it in the workplace. -c
i know a lot of useful things about CS that people who didn't get degrees in CS don't know. Such as? any specific suggestion? ..so that non-CS'ers can do a catch-up? // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Imho, the most important thing about being a good programmer is to be able to think like a good programmer. This requires (1) a good knowledge of theoretical fundamentals as well as (2) awareness about real-world engineering problems. Getting a degree in an appropriate field usually (but not always) ensures (1) and relevant experience usually (but not always) ensures (2). I've seen enough degree-less programmers who blow me away and enough degreed programmers who should (and I say this respectfully) change careers. But I've rarely seen inexperienced programmers who have a good grasp of real-world engineering problems. Personally, I have a BS (Physics/Math) and an MS (CS) and have been programming professionally for 17 years. I'm always learning something from others, and when that stops happening it will be because I no longer program or because I let my ego get the better of me. /ravi "There is always one more bug..." http://www.ravib.com ravib@ravib.com