Trying to learn and work with Microsoft products is like trying to herd cats
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
Sorry to hear that you are not having fun. Typically most books do not go in depth enough. I have found that I learn the most from web sites like this and my coworkers. You can also try http://www.safaribooksonline.com/[^] which will let you take out up to five books at once. Also, most book stores let you exchange a book for up to 30 days. I can't tell you how many times I have exchanged a computer book at borders. "People who never make mistakes, never do anything." My blog http://toddsnotsoamazinglife.blogspot.com/
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
Dead right. The absolute lack of overview (context) information in all Microsoft documentation is absurd. IMO, the only decent technology MS has released in the last 5 years is GDI+.. and the docs for that are some of the worst I've seen (all the C# and VB crap mixed in with the C++ documentation)
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
Yep, I agree. I know there is good stuff in .NET 2.0, but right now, I don't think I can be bothered. I've given up on ADO.NET. I find OO dbs much more useful these days anyway, as well as being much faster for on line transactions. The good thing being that MS don't produce one. Also third party db's work with multiple platforms. Relational is still better for data mining. The MSDN interface is crap. I want it to work like a browser. Middle click and have it open in a new window, but nooooo, it insists on opening in the same page. I'm glad I don't do web programming, as all the change would just make me want to quit. Having to rewrite everything every few years would do my nut. Pretty much everything I do anyway is C++, MFC, STL, Boost, and for the large part most of it cross compiles except for the GUI, but that I don't care. I do enjoy using C# though, and do make use of it. I'm staring at a pile of books as well that will be out of date shortly, and for now, I've just decided not to buy anymore. Enough is enough.
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Sorry to hear that you are not having fun. Typically most books do not go in depth enough. I have found that I learn the most from web sites like this and my coworkers. You can also try http://www.safaribooksonline.com/[^] which will let you take out up to five books at once. Also, most book stores let you exchange a book for up to 30 days. I can't tell you how many times I have exchanged a computer book at borders. "People who never make mistakes, never do anything." My blog http://toddsnotsoamazinglife.blogspot.com/
Thanks for the thought but the fact is, I use (nearly) all of my books. You never know which one might have what you're looking for. I have both Professional VB.Net and Professional C# from Wrox (who I used to swear by but now have slipped below my worthwhile boundry) The VB.Net book does a pretty good of covering security while the C# book ignores it. You never know, so you end up looking in all of them. I also shop VERY carefully for them. I read most of the user reviews at Amazon. I've learned from doing a couple of reviews myself at Bookpool that they don't hesitate to surpress negative reviews. Now, I shop mostly at Amazon. Borders and B&N charge list, so later for them. Will
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Yep, I agree. I know there is good stuff in .NET 2.0, but right now, I don't think I can be bothered. I've given up on ADO.NET. I find OO dbs much more useful these days anyway, as well as being much faster for on line transactions. The good thing being that MS don't produce one. Also third party db's work with multiple platforms. Relational is still better for data mining. The MSDN interface is crap. I want it to work like a browser. Middle click and have it open in a new window, but nooooo, it insists on opening in the same page. I'm glad I don't do web programming, as all the change would just make me want to quit. Having to rewrite everything every few years would do my nut. Pretty much everything I do anyway is C++, MFC, STL, Boost, and for the large part most of it cross compiles except for the GUI, but that I don't care. I do enjoy using C# though, and do make use of it. I'm staring at a pile of books as well that will be out of date shortly, and for now, I've just decided not to buy anymore. Enough is enough.
I envy you. I was doing Unix C++ and Oracle and then just Oracle PL/SQL. But those jobs seem to have gotten extremely scarce. Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" (at least from the third edition on) is absolutely best written technical book I've ever seen. "The C# Programming Language" on the other hand is sad by comparison. Same as most MS doc, it's all over the place. I think they drink too much coffee and can't focus.
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Dead right. The absolute lack of overview (context) information in all Microsoft documentation is absurd. IMO, the only decent technology MS has released in the last 5 years is GDI+.. and the docs for that are some of the worst I've seen (all the C# and VB crap mixed in with the C++ documentation)
Thanks, it does my soul good to know I'm not the only one wandering in the wilderness.
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I envy you. I was doing Unix C++ and Oracle and then just Oracle PL/SQL. But those jobs seem to have gotten extremely scarce. Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" (at least from the third edition on) is absolutely best written technical book I've ever seen. "The C# Programming Language" on the other hand is sad by comparison. Same as most MS doc, it's all over the place. I think they drink too much coffee and can't focus.
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
OldDog.Net wrote: Trying to learn and work with Microsoft products is like trying to herd cats Actually... herding cats is a metaphor often misused since someone who actually knows domesticated cats will know how to herd them. I have herded 4 at a time at my previous residence, and 9 for a friend. Much easier than any Microsoft product. just loudly open a can of tuna waft it over the cats and then walk where you want to go, they will all herd themselves. :) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Not so sure, from what I see there seem to be a good mixture of C++ and .NET jobs going around. Probably not so many Windows, Linux & Solaris jobs like I do though.
Exactly, that's why I've been home for the last four months, living on my savings, learning C# and ASP.Net and SQL Server (and a load of other stuff that I had no idea was involved). I've hooked up with a non-profit and I'm writing a thin-client (does anyone still use that term?) application for them. I was stuck doing the same back-end batch Oracle PL/SQL stuff for 4 1/2 years at Unilever and they would not let me post to another area. I still have too many years ahead of me to become professionally irrelevant. BTW: How the hell does anyone come out of these two week boot camps with half a clue? My guess is that they don't.
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OldDog.Net wrote: Trying to learn and work with Microsoft products is like trying to herd cats Actually... herding cats is a metaphor often misused since someone who actually knows domesticated cats will know how to herd them. I have herded 4 at a time at my previous residence, and 9 for a friend. Much easier than any Microsoft product. just loudly open a can of tuna waft it over the cats and then walk where you want to go, they will all herd themselves. :) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Thanks for the laugh! Ok, now let them all outside, wait 60 secords, and get them all back into the house.;P
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Exactly, that's why I've been home for the last four months, living on my savings, learning C# and ASP.Net and SQL Server (and a load of other stuff that I had no idea was involved). I've hooked up with a non-profit and I'm writing a thin-client (does anyone still use that term?) application for them. I was stuck doing the same back-end batch Oracle PL/SQL stuff for 4 1/2 years at Unilever and they would not let me post to another area. I still have too many years ahead of me to become professionally irrelevant. BTW: How the hell does anyone come out of these two week boot camps with half a clue? My guess is that they don't.
OldDog.Net wrote: I'm writing a thin-client (does anyone still use that term?) application for them Hmmm, not unless you are a tech exec in a big company, who is 5 years out of date. The rest of us who are human (non out of date manager types), call it web based. :-D OldDog.Net wrote: I was stuck doing the same back-end batch Oracle PL/SQL stuff for 4 1/2 years at Unilever Run for the hills. Sounds like you made the right choice. Preserving ones sanity is important. OldDog.Net wrote: BTW: How the hell does anyone come out of these two week boot camps with half a clue? My guess is that they don't. I can see the ad now - Get a job in IT by doing this 2 week course. Disclaimer - there is absolutely fuck all chance of you getting a job in IT, unless the person interviewing you knows even less, which is unlikey, unless its a tech exec in a big company.
"Je pense, donc je mange." - Rene Descartes 1689 - Just before his mother put his tea on the table. Shameless Plug - Distributed Database Transactions in .NET using COM+
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Thanks for the laugh! Ok, now let them all outside, wait 60 secords, and get them all back into the house.;P
Tell the neighbor to let the dogs out. :-)
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
I agree. The first programming platform I ever owned was Borland C/C++ 3. It came with a stack of books. I think the concept of an 'MSDN" is great - IF it were supplemental reference material. But it is no replacement for a formal set of platform documentation. But all in all, I still think VS is the best thing going.
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OldDog.Net wrote: I'm writing a thin-client (does anyone still use that term?) application for them Hmmm, not unless you are a tech exec in a big company, who is 5 years out of date. The rest of us who are human (non out of date manager types), call it web based. :-D OldDog.Net wrote: I was stuck doing the same back-end batch Oracle PL/SQL stuff for 4 1/2 years at Unilever Run for the hills. Sounds like you made the right choice. Preserving ones sanity is important. OldDog.Net wrote: BTW: How the hell does anyone come out of these two week boot camps with half a clue? My guess is that they don't. I can see the ad now - Get a job in IT by doing this 2 week course. Disclaimer - there is absolutely fuck all chance of you getting a job in IT, unless the person interviewing you knows even less, which is unlikey, unless its a tech exec in a big company.
"Je pense, donc je mange." - Rene Descartes 1689 - Just before his mother put his tea on the table. Shameless Plug - Distributed Database Transactions in .NET using COM+
Yeah, so basically what you're saying is I'm 5 years out of date. I knew that! But I'm not ashamed. Prior to spending my 4 1/2 years in limbo, I got to do some pretty cool stuff. BTW: Here's another one for you: WYSIWYG! I asked someone if they'd ever heard that term the other day. What a look they gave me. "Huh?! What planet are you from, anyway." I like your ad with the disclaimer. Make the letters big please. But, the tech exec in the big company doesn't need to know Jack Whats-his-name because there are web sites with tech questions for every occasion. Some even supply the answers. I almost went for a 3 month boot camp myself but, for the price I, figured I could do better on my own.
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
the old off-line (VC 1,2,4,5,6) MSDN was OK - at least it was fast. the MSDN for VS .Net, though, ugh. it does sucketh .... and it sucketh slowly... a little too slowly. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
The docs really does suck. Some of the time, I only use MSDN as a collection of google search keywords... Good music: In my rosary[^]
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the old off-line (VC 1,2,4,5,6) MSDN was OK - at least it was fast. the MSDN for VS .Net, though, ugh. it does sucketh .... and it sucketh slowly... a little too slowly. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote: at least it was fast That's about the only difference. Much of the MSDN docs, which aren't about .NET, are basicially the old docs, but with pretty colors. Good music: In my rosary[^]
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Tell the neighbor to let the dogs out. :-)
rwestgraham wrote: Tell the neighbor to let the dogs out. that is stampeding cats... and if you have ever had four cats run across your body at full speed with claws... it is something to be avoided. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I agree. The first programming platform I ever owned was Borland C/C++ 3. It came with a stack of books. I think the concept of an 'MSDN" is great - IF it were supplemental reference material. But it is no replacement for a formal set of platform documentation. But all in all, I still think VS is the best thing going.
I agree completely. Others do and have been doing it right since long before there was a Microsoft. There just no excuse. MSDN is a wonderful construct containing 3rd rate or at least (intentionally???) incomplete information. VS.Net is an amazing IDE for amazing (though still somewhat half baked) software semi-documented in an unfortunately inscrutable manner. Sometimes I wonder if they're promoting personality cults by having certain highly visible Microsoft developers, e.g. Dino Esposito, come down off the mountain with the commandments that everyone has been thirsting for.