Programmer's Bias
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Objectivity can be pretty subjective.
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Most workaraounds I (we at work) have to do is due to IE difficulties, and because customers rarely understand/know the issues revolving around IE vs. non-IE browsers it becomes a hassle. I think such comments is mearly a developers way of "unwinding" and blowing off steam. Although we try to keep our comments in "public" code rather neutral such as IE or Mozilla Fix/Hak. --------------------------- 127.0.0.1 - Sweet 127.0.0.1
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Programmers are still people - and people are biased :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Objectivity can be pretty subjective.
espeir wrote:
Objectivity can be pretty subjective.
:laugh: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? I think they are logical when it comes to code and design, but by definition they tend to be less socially oriented, and less socially functional as a result. A lack of social skills, cultural awareness, and coping skills, makes them more prone to being control freaks, and prone to irrational emotionality around things that contradict or support their locked down little worlds. In the latter case it can make them fiercely loyal to the school of thought that supports their particular world view, even to the point of being hystrionic, paranoid, or completely irrational - IMHO The beauty of bias is that we can rarely see our own because it is so deeply engrained into who we are and how we think. But what do I know, I'm a software engineer. :)
-
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
Do you believe MS would admit bugs in their products? In this case it's just some features that Firefox obviously doesn't support :rolleyes:
Greeeg wrote:
Do you believe MS would admit bugs in their products? In this case it's just some features that Firefox obviously doesn't support
And the reverse holds for non-MS open source projects too I guess - they won't admit a Firefox incompatibility/bug and will blame IE. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Programmers are still people - and people are biased :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Very succinct, well said. I still think programmers are worse than the average biped.
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
When i start a project in VS6, then i become irritated upon moving to VS2005 and finding i need to make changes to certain message handlers because they changed the datatypes. When i start in VS2005 and have to back-port to VS6, i become infuriated upon being reminded of all the language bugs that i now have to work around again. And as Kant mentioned, the Live.com developers haven't been terribly complementary to IE in some situations, so even MS-employed web-devs are willing to admit the really bad problems (memory leaks, filter crashes...).
---- Scripts i’ve known... CPhog 1.0.0.0 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
-
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? I think they are logical when it comes to code and design, but by definition they tend to be less socially oriented, and less socially functional as a result. A lack of social skills, cultural awareness, and coping skills, makes them more prone to being control freaks, and prone to irrational emotionality around things that contradict or support their locked down little worlds. In the latter case it can make them fiercely loyal to the school of thought that supports their particular world view, even to the point of being hystrionic, paranoid, or completely irrational - IMHO The beauty of bias is that we can rarely see our own because it is so deeply engrained into who we are and how we think. But what do I know, I'm a software engineer. :)
nicknotyet wrote:
and prone to irrational emotionality around things that contradict or support their locked down little worlds
Yeah, i rarely ever see this in people who aren't programmers... :rolleyes: ;)
---- Scripts i’ve known... CPhog 1.0.0.0 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
So my question is: does ATLAS work in Opera? The demo pages for the latest ATLAS Toolkit don't. Cross-browser compatibility is the requirement in web development. Anyway, even if they put workarounds and hacks to make the product work in every browser, that's fine to me. _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 0.2a...
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased?
To put a different perspective on this, many people routinely bash BASIC and any derivative products thereof. From my perspective, when I started programming (VERY early '80s), my options were: interpreted BASIC or Assembler. So, I learned BASIC. I have learned a number of languages since and have used many languages in my career, but, because I was first exposed to BASIC, I tend to work in that environment - it is where my comfort level is. To some, that makes me a 'bad' or 'lazy' or 'useless' programmer. The language is a tool - the browser is a tool. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Tim
-
nicknotyet wrote:
and prone to irrational emotionality around things that contradict or support their locked down little worlds
Yeah, i rarely ever see this in people who aren't programmers... :rolleyes: ;)
---- Scripts i’ve known... CPhog 1.0.0.0 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
Clowns from the entertainment industry immediately come to mind ... :sigh: I've seen better runs in my shorts! - Patches O'Houlihan
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
I won't answer your bias question but I will say that a: the Atlas guys know IE inside and out and better than they do Firefox and b: they probably start by developing for IE and then integrate the other browsers (as opposed to what a good many of the other JS library devs will do which is start with Firefox or Safari and then integrate IE etc.) So it is more a case of where they are coming from rather than an illogical loyalty bias. Do remember that devs on the IE team itself have admitted IE6 is problematic and way behind. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
-
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased?
To put a different perspective on this, many people routinely bash BASIC and any derivative products thereof. From my perspective, when I started programming (VERY early '80s), my options were: interpreted BASIC or Assembler. So, I learned BASIC. I have learned a number of languages since and have used many languages in my career, but, because I was first exposed to BASIC, I tend to work in that environment - it is where my comfort level is. To some, that makes me a 'bad' or 'lazy' or 'useless' programmer. The language is a tool - the browser is a tool. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Tim
Tim Carmichael wrote:
To put a different perspective on this, many people routinely bash BASIC and any derivative products thereof.
Agree with you. C++ and C# devs bash VB. C++ and C# devs bash each other. Everyone collectively bashes C++/CLI. Jokes about Cobol/Fortran/Pascal are more popular than "your momma" jokes. Obviously, all these are further proof of how subjective programmers can be. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
so strongly biased?
i would say thats more of loyality then bias... Rule # 17: Omit Needless Words - Strunk, William, Jr. ------------------------------------------------------------- Universal DBA | Ajax Rating
-
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
If programmers were really objective we would all revolt and come up with one standard to rule them all, one standard to bind them all and in the standard screw them all. Programmers are not objective. They are passionate! Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
-
If programmers were really objective we would all revolt and come up with one standard to rule them all, one standard to bind them all and in the standard screw them all. Programmers are not objective. They are passionate! Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
Marc Clifton wrote:
one standard to rule them all, one standard to bind them all and in the standard screw them all.
I thought that's what Windows was for? Hasn't this already been achieved? :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
-
I won't answer your bias question but I will say that a: the Atlas guys know IE inside and out and better than they do Firefox and b: they probably start by developing for IE and then integrate the other browsers (as opposed to what a good many of the other JS library devs will do which is start with Firefox or Safari and then integrate IE etc.) So it is more a case of where they are coming from rather than an illogical loyalty bias. Do remember that devs on the IE team itself have admitted IE6 is problematic and way behind. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
I think that sums it up best. Whenever you get the code working the first time, that is the "right" way. Any changes you make later on are kludges, workarounds or maintenance code. Kinda the real world keeps spoiling my beautiful designs theme.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon