Ouch
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I think Marcs response was there to indicate the irony of the situation. The fact that you were looking fro a way to bill those who were trying to get more information from you about you but then you were asking others for free. :) One thing I have learned in business is that you cannot expect to make a dime off of EVERY bit of your talent. Yes, you need to feel comfortable in asking to get paid for your work, you would not be a good business name and should in fact NOT be in charge of your business if you have a problem with asking to get paid, but you have to understand that it takes money to make money. Talking for free is one excellent way to spend money you don't have and will not miss to market yourself to a very large group. The cost of talk is nothing. Be willing to talk to people on the phone about your ideas (sans the gory money making details obviously). Take the time to make your name known on Usenet by answering questions that others are seeking answers to for free. I LOVE doing this because it does a few things. 1) The Internet is forever. You better believe that just about anyone looking to hire you as a consultant that knows anything about business is going to take a quick few minutes to Google your name. If they see you taking the time to help people on your own time solve issues not only have you just marketed yourself as a good corporate citizen and a team player but you have just boosted your personal advertising dollar 2 fold and it literally cost you nothing but your time. 2) It helps you sharpen your communications skills since you have to convey your technical prowess in print rather than over the phone. I also recommend that if you think you have something to say and need to get your name out, do so by writing articles here (something that I have not done yet) or try submitting articles to magazines for publications. Do anything that really in the long term costs you very little but can potentially net you a lot over the years. Consider opening yourself up to talking at user groups, schools, etc... Maybe the term looser was a bit harsh, but it probably got you thinking and opened you up to communication. In that end it did what I think it was supposed to do. Your attitude is good about it but it is what you will do with it that really counts. Now, with that said, keep in mind that you still have to live. You may not be able pay the bills if you hold out for doing something that you love. Look at it this way, even if you hate the job, if it is in the technical area th
Ray Cassick wrote:
Now, with that said, keep in mind that you still have to live. You may not be able pay the bills if you hold out for doing something that you love. Look at it this way, even if you hate the job, if it is in the technical area that you want to be in at least you are in the business. Once you get your foot in the door that is often the first opportunity you have to show what you can do outside those mundane tasks that make up your day to day grind. Keep your ears open for opportunities where you can shine a bit. I am not saying that you need to work at a crappy boring job for years and years though so be alert also to the good times to say enough is enough and move on but at least you have added a legit job in your field to your CV. From then on it should get simpler.
Agreed. Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously. With nothing but bottom rate contracting in your CV, you're unlikely to get anything better, a year or two of full time work should really be a big help in this regard even if you find yourself hating every minute of it.
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late
Sorry but that is really a cheap excuse. In my college paper they listed an obituary for a man from the class of 2003 (golly why did he die so young.) Then it listed his WW2 service metals. You are NOT too old (youngster.)
Hockey wrote:
It's more of a lack of connections or business know
No it is a lack of proving your ability to work through tasks. I know of no one that would consider hiring a consultant with out a college degree unless there was some SOLID proof behind him (like 20 years military experience.) If they found out you did not even have a high school degree..... "Yes I know the voices are not real. But they have some pretty good ideas."
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http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=1555326#xx1555326xx[^] Why I have I chosen to create a new post...I felt it important that everyone that laughed at me had a better understanding of where I was coming from... :-D Perhaps it's my fault for not fully explaing in the first place... I chose Marc's post because...well...it was the biggest kick in the junk...sucks being called down by someone you respect... I'm gonna have to start calling Marc my Dad :P But that's a whole different can of worms ain't it??? :) My history (queue epic theme music): ==================================== I started programming at a very early age (nothing new I know a handfull of guys my age who did the same) and have therefore accumulated a vast amount of experience...covering everything from low level to high level...from desktop to web development...I am interested and very passionate about almost everything computers and being single and living at home with the parents I can afford to spend a great deal of time doing what I do best...learning new stuff...and tinkering with ideas, etc... I am currently employed at a minimum wage job delivering auto parts...as there are few programming jobs in my city...especially those which are worth my time and effort...I'm not complaining...I'm just saying... So if you feel the need to yell at me and say something like: "Move to another city" hold your breathe... I can't do anything if it doesn't make me happy...maintaining garbage scripts, etc...doesn't appeal to me...so despite better pay...I'd be as miserable doing that living on my own as I am living at home with my parents...but at least here I still have flexibility..which makes me happy... I dropped out of school, not to smoke pot in the hockey bleachers...but to read books on programming and study becoming a pilot (my original intent in life was to be a fighter pilot) of course...nothing ever turns out quite as expected... :P I drive my delivery truck *really* fast to compensate for my lack of fast flying...but only on desserted roads so no one is put at risk but me - don't worry MADD :) Around 5-6 years ago...I started thinking maybe I could make a living at programming...seeing how...well it's all I've done everyday of my life since I was about 7 or 8 years old...and despite not having a
I wrote a longer post, but network connection was lost and I didn't copy paste.... but here goes the 2nd condensed version.... First, learn compression.... my life: born, school, school, school, school, drop out, school, work, married, divorced, married, new work, hospitalized, divorced, codeproject. Second, finish something.... no snippets, real long projects. Sure you won't get paid for it, it isn't about the money, it is about the real experience. Snippets are not experience. Choose your battles, get something for everyone faught. Snippets rarely covers integration issues, large scale debugging issues (search for that memory leak in 250,000 lines of code). Snippets rarely covers customer issues, they want the world, you have to deliver at least the moon, convincing yourself to work that hard and negotiating the change in design, priceless. I did not finish college, went to votech for business accounting (the degree comp sci majors laugh at), and I do 3D visualization now, and give presentations on advanced techniques, augmented video, telepresence, Unmanned navigation, etc. You can have anything you want, but you have to want it bad enough to do more than snippets. I know what the bottom feels like, trust me. Two marriages, two divorces, and a hospitalization that ate away one internal organ, and damaged a few others. Although I am large (and getting smaller -- compression again ;) ), I have known what it is like to go jogging to try to forget the hunger pains from an empty fridge when I went to votech. You deal, you focus, you finish. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I wrote a longer post, but network connection was lost and I didn't copy paste.... but here goes the 2nd condensed version.... First, learn compression.... my life: born, school, school, school, school, drop out, school, work, married, divorced, married, new work, hospitalized, divorced, codeproject. Second, finish something.... no snippets, real long projects. Sure you won't get paid for it, it isn't about the money, it is about the real experience. Snippets are not experience. Choose your battles, get something for everyone faught. Snippets rarely covers integration issues, large scale debugging issues (search for that memory leak in 250,000 lines of code). Snippets rarely covers customer issues, they want the world, you have to deliver at least the moon, convincing yourself to work that hard and negotiating the change in design, priceless. I did not finish college, went to votech for business accounting (the degree comp sci majors laugh at), and I do 3D visualization now, and give presentations on advanced techniques, augmented video, telepresence, Unmanned navigation, etc. You can have anything you want, but you have to want it bad enough to do more than snippets. I know what the bottom feels like, trust me. Two marriages, two divorces, and a hospitalization that ate away one internal organ, and damaged a few others. Although I am large (and getting smaller -- compression again ;) ), I have known what it is like to go jogging to try to forget the hunger pains from an empty fridge when I went to votech. You deal, you focus, you finish. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Now, with that said, keep in mind that you still have to live. You may not be able pay the bills if you hold out for doing something that you love. Look at it this way, even if you hate the job, if it is in the technical area that you want to be in at least you are in the business. Once you get your foot in the door that is often the first opportunity you have to show what you can do outside those mundane tasks that make up your day to day grind. Keep your ears open for opportunities where you can shine a bit. I am not saying that you need to work at a crappy boring job for years and years though so be alert also to the good times to say enough is enough and move on but at least you have added a legit job in your field to your CV. From then on it should get simpler.
Agreed. Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously. With nothing but bottom rate contracting in your CV, you're unlikely to get anything better, a year or two of full time work should really be a big help in this regard even if you find yourself hating every minute of it.
dan neely wrote:
Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously.
The major item on the CV would have to be very convincing for me. Having some articles and code snippets are nice and all, but if I were a hiring manager, I'd want to see the degree regardless of other accomplishments.
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In my reply to your posting, I made some suggestions of a positive nature. I also suggested that if you really want to become a self employed person there are hoops you need to jump through otherwise you are very likely to waste not just time but an awful amount of money. Having a proper business plan which includes an investigation into your proposals as well as the production of Profit and Loss forcasting and Cashflow forcasting spreadsheets showing realistic proposed budgets not forgetting to perform a personal survival budget. These are a vital must. If you are not sure what these are (1) Business Plan, (2) Profit & Loss forcast, (3) Cashflow forcast, (4) Personal Survival Budget etc then you had better NOT take the self employed avenue until you know exactly the reason for their existence and the exact way in which you are to use these *LEGAL* documents. And these are not the only documentation that you must create. Contact me if you require further information
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If you are not sure what these are
Darn... I can't vote this a 10.... _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I did vote 1, because what a moron decides that a high school diploma is not important? My eMail control My Blog
Albert Pascual wrote:
I did vote 1, because what a moron decides that a high school diploma is not important?
What moron decides a college degree isn't important? Bill Gates? Weird Al? Larry Ellison? Most of the self-made millionaires in the US? I do think an education is important, but you don't need school to get one. What you need is motivation. Yes, the peice of paper helps, but I don't think having no diploma will stop you from acheiving your dreams in life moreso than not going after your dreams at all. Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Oh I had to.
Invest or bail on someone? I'll admit I had to bail on a project because the project went into the toilet with no hope of coming back...
Paul Conrad wrote:
Invest or bail on someone?
I mean take the shot at MS. Jeremy Falcon
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In my reply to your posting, I made some suggestions of a positive nature. I also suggested that if you really want to become a self employed person there are hoops you need to jump through otherwise you are very likely to waste not just time but an awful amount of money. Having a proper business plan which includes an investigation into your proposals as well as the production of Profit and Loss forcasting and Cashflow forcasting spreadsheets showing realistic proposed budgets not forgetting to perform a personal survival budget. These are a vital must. If you are not sure what these are (1) Business Plan, (2) Profit & Loss forcast, (3) Cashflow forcast, (4) Personal Survival Budget etc then you had better NOT take the self employed avenue until you know exactly the reason for their existence and the exact way in which you are to use these *LEGAL* documents. And these are not the only documentation that you must create. Contact me if you require further information
CashFlow? Business Plan? Budget? What, have you been reading Robert Kiyosaki's very successful and very good books? (Which BTW everyone should read) :p [And no I don't get a commission I just recommend them because they do open a completely new way of thinking. Now I really feel guilty when I buy toys] "Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies...
Any real job consulting or otherwise is going to be way more difficult then anything high school or GED related. There is no job just designing, developing and writing code, especially as a consultant. The hard part is figuring out what features will really be useful and to do that you need all those skills that you would have demonstrated getting through school. You need some way to prove yourself there as well. Getting and education is a good way to do that. I don't know any others.
Hockey wrote:
It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Your sig says it all. A genius would not live the life of a moron. All people face obstacles in life. People that get it spend their lives overcomming them, not because they are easy, but they see the long term results of hard work they are doing now. If you think you are really that smart figure out how to make it apparent to everyone.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
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dan neely wrote:
Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously.
The major item on the CV would have to be very convincing for me. Having some articles and code snippets are nice and all, but if I were a hiring manager, I'd want to see the degree regardless of other accomplishments.
Agreed. At the moment though Hockey effectively has nothing, finding a hiring manager (probably for a startup looking for cheap labor) and staying in place for a year or two's probably a cheaper and faster way to get something meaningful than earning a BS working full time. At a minimum though taking the GED test shouldn't be too painful, and while not directly relevant to an IT job would at least be an indication of trying to get his life in order after wasting a decade.
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I did vote 1, because what a moron decides that a high school diploma is not important? My eMail control My Blog
Well, I would argue that College is what's important. High School is a glorified Day Care. But then again I was a dropout, didn't learn that much, but did take the G.E.D. and scored in the 95 % against graduating seniors. So, a diploma is worth crap. But a college education is golden. Take the G.E.D. then at least grab an Associate's or Bachelor's Degree.
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Josh Smith wrote:
If your dev skills are as up to par as you say they are, then I don't see why you couldn't get a full-time dev job with a real company
I wouldn't mind...but it would have to be doing something I enjoyed...otherwise there is no point... I've slowly lost interest in C++ development and only keep interested because the language itself is so damn cool and some of the libraries like Spirit just amaze me... PHP is it for me...or at least web development...but using C++ practically for web development is almost out of the question... I want to pursue a consultant position only because the flexibility it would afford me... Different projects every month or so... Instead of being stuck improving a project which I don't even believe in... I'll see where this consultant thing takes me...and maybe just get my answering machine to record messages and I can call them back on my land line instead of my cell phone :) Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
but it would have to be doing something I enjoyed...otherwise there is no point...
Ummm... for one year you would benefit by toughing it out. Then you'd have a reference, and that's what your missing. You wouldn't have to stay at this job indefinately.
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Agreed. At the moment though Hockey effectively has nothing, finding a hiring manager (probably for a startup looking for cheap labor) and staying in place for a year or two's probably a cheaper and faster way to get something meaningful than earning a BS working full time. At a minimum though taking the GED test shouldn't be too painful, and while not directly relevant to an IT job would at least be an indication of trying to get his life in order after wasting a decade.
dan neely wrote:
At a minimum though taking the GED test shouldn't be too painful, and while not directly relevant to an IT job would at least be an indication of trying to get his life in order after wasting a decade.
Totally. It is a start.
dan neely wrote:
staying in place for a year or two's probably a cheaper and faster way to get something meaningful than earning a BS working full time.
It is possible to do. I've earned both my Bachelor's and Master's while working fulltime and paretning fulltime. I financially did it WITHOUT my parent's help and I think Hockey needs to quit feeling sorry about himself and apply himself to success rather than sulking around.
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Do they have the equivalent of the G.E.D. in Canada? Take the test then enter College. You would be there within the year.
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Thats my biggest problem... I've realized this for years...but it's difficult to make the transition from developer to businessman as they are very different skillsets... It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
I don't know where you are in Canada, but find your nearest Community Futures[^] office and go see them. They offer all sorts of marketing courses, resources, business development info., advice etc. I used to work for them - wrote a loan portfolio management system way back in the late 80's to administer their small business loans. I also wrote sample business plans and cash flows projections for their training sessions (again decades ago). A few years back I took one of their excellent marketing courses - I definitely recommend it. Really, the first thing to do is find out if what you want to do is viable. Their courses will give you what you need to know to develop a business plan, marketing plan, cash flow projections etc. It will also give you access to people who have been there many times and can review your ideas. Heck, I found out there are people in town here who will review my proposals and other documents for free. Cheers, Drew.
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CashFlow? Business Plan? Budget? What, have you been reading Robert Kiyosaki's very successful and very good books? (Which BTW everyone should read) :p [And no I don't get a commission I just recommend them because they do open a completely new way of thinking. Now I really feel guilty when I buy toys] "Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
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I don't know where you are in Canada, but find your nearest Community Futures[^] office and go see them. They offer all sorts of marketing courses, resources, business development info., advice etc. I used to work for them - wrote a loan portfolio management system way back in the late 80's to administer their small business loans. I also wrote sample business plans and cash flows projections for their training sessions (again decades ago). A few years back I took one of their excellent marketing courses - I definitely recommend it. Really, the first thing to do is find out if what you want to do is viable. Their courses will give you what you need to know to develop a business plan, marketing plan, cash flow projections etc. It will also give you access to people who have been there many times and can review your ideas. Heck, I found out there are people in town here who will review my proposals and other documents for free. Cheers, Drew.
Sounds like a great resource. Would you know of the equivalent in the US perhaps? Jeremy Falcon
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Sounds like a great resource. Would you know of the equivalent in the US perhaps? Jeremy Falcon