which language to start with

Christian Graus

Well, in fact, Microsoft didn't get Tom to write a book for C# 2005, so that book, while it was good at the time, is now out of date.

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

Member 96

C#, definitely. C++ is dying despite what people are inevitably going to say in reaction to that statement they know in their hearts it's true.

Dan Neely

Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:

Sorry, the man looses again! Thank you for playing, better luck next time! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language\_change\[^\]

If possible, find a copy of L. Sprague deCamp's essay "English for hte Time Traveller". Even though it's a bit dated (the 'now' neologism examples are 50 or 60 yearrs old), it's by far the best consise example of how the English language has changed over the last few hundred years.

-- Rules of thumb should not be taken for the whole hand.

123 0

Christian Graus wrote:

But, it is NOT a painting program.

It's not? We often say that the importance of this program lies in the fact that, instead of being a mere image filter, "It paints like a human does - without a single 'matrix transformation' or 'gaussian blur'". Like a person, the Cal Monet first recalls from memory a real-life image of the suggested subject (we can think of Google's image database as the program's memory in this instance). Then it simply - and I stress the word simply - (1) looks at a spot on the original, (2) mixes some paint to match, and (3) dabs the canvas; the dabs being, like a human artist's dabs, rather imprecise and often overlapping other dabs. And yet the works produced are often quite striking; "suitable for framing" one might say. I know we've hung a few up. Incidently, if you run the sample, you can get alternate renderings for any subject you enter using the PAGE UP and PAGE DOWN keys. Again, like real art, not every attempt results in a masterpiece, and like a real artist, sometimes the Cal Money misunderstands your request.

Christian Graus wrote:

the language has it's own strict rules of grammar,

Of course it does; what language - natural or artificial - doesn't? But unlike the grammar of other programming languages, our rules of grammar are those of an existing natural language, and not something we simply "made up". And as our compiler improves, we get closer and closer to supporting a greater subset of the whole. One of the reasons we chose English for our compiler is that we knew we were embarking on a decades-long development project (the PAL 3000) and we didn't want our code base to become obsolete half-way through. Can you think of a more stable syntax and grammar to bet on?

Christian Graus wrote:

I'm just wondering if you factor in to your recommendation that you're recommending another language, with it's own rules of grammar and syntax, and with far less support than the more mainstream languages ?

First, I don't think the kind of support you're talking about is the issue. The person in question will have the personal support of the two individuals who designed and implemented the language and will therefore benefit, if not in quantity, certainly in quality. Who wouldn't want to learn, say, Pascal from Niklaus Wirth? or FORTH from Charles Moore or an expert like Leo Brody

123 0

PaulC1972 wrote:

Duh! They are two different langauges... Only if it is C# and they are still supporting in the future.

Which is exactly my point. We don't know what language Microsoft will be pushing a decade (or a year!) from now. But we do know that English will still be English for a long time to come...

Paul Conrad

The Grand Negus wrote:

We don't know what language Microsoft will be pushing a decade (or a year!) from now.

Well, C/C++ have been around for sometime, and I am sure they probably still be around 10 years from now.

If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa

Christian Graus

The Grand Negus wrote:

(1) looks at a spot on the original, (2) mixes some paint to match, and (3) dabs the canvas; the dabs being, like a human artist's dabs, rather imprecise and often overlapping other dabs.

In other words, it does what a filter I'd write in any language does.

The Grand Negus wrote:

Again, like real art, not every attempt results in a masterpiece, and like a real artist, sometimes the Cal Money misunderstands your request.

You can't write this sort of filter without introducing a random element. My core point would be - someone who runs the app and doesn't have a firewall, may make the mistake of thinking 'I said fish, and PE understood me'. No, you rely on google, which I presume was not written in PE.

The Grand Negus wrote:

And as our compiler improves, we get closer and closer to supporting a greater subset of the whole.

OK, that's reasonable. If it can be made more flexible than it is now, then over time, I can see powerful, real world applications for it. The big question is, if you write a fat old English parser that turns English in to code, and the rules become loose, how will you know exactly what a line of code is going to do ?

The Grand Negus wrote:

Can you think of a more stable syntax and grammar to bet on?

I'd bet anything you like on C++ being around until I die.

The Grand Negus wrote:

The person in question will have the personal support of the two individuals who designed and implemented the language and will therefore benefit, if not in quantity, certainly in quality.

Yes, I can see how an enthusiastic adopter would get a lot more support from you than I ever got from Stroustrup :-) But, I mean more that all the eggs are in one basket. What do I do if I want a quick answer while you're sleeping, or if you die ?

The Grand Negus wrote:

Others disagree.

I'm sure they do. I am only talking about my opinion, it's the only one I know well enough to discuss. :-)

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

Christian Graus

*sob* Don't leave me, C++, I love you so....

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

Paul Conrad

Christian Graus wrote:

the rules become loose, how will you know exactly what a line of code is going to do ?

Exactly. You have to have a deterministic behavior. Woundn't be good if one day it compiled a certain set of machine code, and then the next day, a different set of code behaving differently.

If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa

El Corazon

The Grand Negus wrote:

Others disagree. Our first customer, months ago, wrote to us the same day he got the thing and said, "I wish I had had something like this when I was first starting out." But perhaps long-term support was not his primary concern...

hey, there are folks who love VB.... we call them brain damaged, not developers. What you have done is less than COBOL did and less important.

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

El Corazon

dan neely wrote:

If possible, find a copy of L. Sprague deCamp's essay "English for hte Time Traveller". Even though it's a bit dated (the 'now' neologism examples are 50 or 60 yearrs old), it's by far the best consise example of how the English language has changed over the last few hundred years.

It is a great read. :) Though I think having cousins in Mississippi and a step-father from Boston, friends in Ohio and going to school in Tulsa, OK have introduced me to a lot of the lingual shifts within the continental USA. I'll stick with C++, less change even with the ANSI additions now and then. :)

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

DaTxomin

It has been said already. The most important point is WHY and WHAT FOR he wants to learn to program. If it is just for no reason whatsoever, you may want to take a look at Euphoria[^]. Very easy for beginners and powerful enough for interesting projects.

El Corazon

The Grand Negus wrote:

Seems a bit ambiguous, even to a human...

what??!!?? lingual shifts even in computer language exchanges in English... please tell me it isn't so!! :rolleyes:

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

Christian Graus

PaulC1972 wrote:

Woundn't be good if one day it compiled a certain set of machine code, and then the next day, a different set of code behaving differently.

Well, that WOULD be more English-like, the soapbox is proof of that :P Your sig is strangely appropriate to this thread...

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

Dan Neely

I think everyone's missing a key point. Pick a language you know well. When you dad gets stuck, you want to be able to quickly give an answer, not spent 30 minutes googling for soemthing trivial.

-- Rules of thumb should not be taken for the whole hand.

Paul Conrad

Christian Graus wrote:

Well, that WOULD be more English-like, the soapbox is proof of that;P

Yes, indeed.

Christian Graus wrote:

Your sig is strangely appropriate to this thread...

:->

If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa

Joe Woodbury

I agree with the suggestion of first identifying what kind of programs he eventually wants to write. If he wants to learn just for the sake of learning, I go with C#. Amongst many other reasons is that the tools available are so more sophisticated than many of the alternatives. On top of that the amount of reference materials and third party libraries is big and growing. C# would also give him a highly marketable skill. For these same reasons, my secondary recommendation would be C++. (Yes, I know it's uncool to suggest C++, but it's still a damn good language and one that gives you a marketable skill.)

Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke

123 0

PaulC1972 wrote:

Well, C/C++ have been around for sometime, and I am sure they probably still be around 10 years from now

"Around" and "fully supported" are two different things. Tell Microsoft you'd like to write straight "C" applications and see what kind of response you get. It took a lawsuit just to get them to publish the flat interface for GDI++!

El Corazon

The Grand Negus wrote:

English will still be English

Will that be the Queens English? American English? Californian dialect? Texas Drawl? Southern? Bostonian? New York and Jersey variants? or perhaps even the slavic influences of the northern border states? Just which English will you use.... oh yeah.... YOUR decision on what English should be, what limitations, what syntax, and no other.... PAL will be a trained dog with far less sense.

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

Paul Conrad

Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:

Californian dialect? Texas Drawl?

:->

If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa