Who's the Greater? The Developer, The SysAdmin, The NetAdmin or some other I.T. Guy?
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This is inspired by John Simmons' Message on Admin Rights. It is time to communicate something. I thought the developers wrote the apps on any OS that sysadmins and netadmins configure.:cool::cool: I thought they are even taught by developers, how to go around those stuff as how to configure, install and administer their various server apps, but from the article by John subjected Admin Rights?, developers are walking on fallowed grounds, begging to have access to the OS features developed by developers, how strange.:confused: Remember, the programmer cum developer are creators as in creative, sysadmins, netadmins are administrators, they use what has been created to achieve a general purpose. So who on your pick is the greater? I go for the developer cos development (i mean software) allows you to know all the stuff about database admin, sys admin, net admin, and even electrical engineering as in programming circuits (remember the machine language on some strange processor). So who on your pick is the greater?
AlbertDadze
Since I perform all the duties of all of the above I am not sure what to say.
John
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Or, nowadays, USB memory sticks.
about to be blocked here. :) CD sneakernet will remain though.... ironically. :laugh:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Lemmie guess. Someone's having a conniption over the fact that you can't write protect a USB stick.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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This is inspired by John Simmons' Message on Admin Rights. It is time to communicate something. I thought the developers wrote the apps on any OS that sysadmins and netadmins configure.:cool::cool: I thought they are even taught by developers, how to go around those stuff as how to configure, install and administer their various server apps, but from the article by John subjected Admin Rights?, developers are walking on fallowed grounds, begging to have access to the OS features developed by developers, how strange.:confused: Remember, the programmer cum developer are creators as in creative, sysadmins, netadmins are administrators, they use what has been created to achieve a general purpose. So who on your pick is the greater? I go for the developer cos development (i mean software) allows you to know all the stuff about database admin, sys admin, net admin, and even electrical engineering as in programming circuits (remember the machine language on some strange processor). So who on your pick is the greater?
AlbertDadze
Apologies for the analogy, but .... Letting your developers have Admin rights is akin to letting the brick layers inpsect and signoff on the electrical for a house that's going up. Not a good idea. :)
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar]
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Lemmie guess. Someone's having a conniption over the fact that you can't write protect a USB stick.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
dan neely wrote:
Someone's having a conniption over the fact that you can't write protect a USB stick.
nope, strictly form a bring software/data in/out. I asked about the CD issue, they honestly hadn't even thought about that, especially based the expressions. I am sure CDs and floppies will follow, we'll all have thin-station machines with no read-write capability shortly there-after. Silly me. Then they can replace my network computer with a internet appliance picture frame and I'd probably gain some processing power. ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Albert Dadze wrote:
I am beginning to wonder
you really do NOT want my resume. :) Honest. :)
Albert Dadze wrote:
Get some books Man, it is important as a developer to have fundamental knowledge of every other IT concerns
I do, and I have. However, regardless of my prior experience before here, I was actually referring to another member here who is an independant contractor. I was a one-man shop for a small-company, never independant contracting unless you count about a handful of forays into that realm, but who knows what the future holds. Anyhow, he and other independants here give me hope I could make the break again. I think my direction would still be R&D though, I would miss the quest for new software technologies too much. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
El Corazon wrote:
you really do NOT want my resume. Honest.
Alright Man, to be honest, I hope you don't consider my statement as an insult, just trying to express some points.
AlbertDadze
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Now you're talking! We can't forget those folks, or the people that build their tools, etc...
BW
Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.
-- Neil PeartWhat about the truck drivers, driving down the road or the steel worker in Detroit or the coal miner in the holes.:laugh: I feel an old Alabama song coming on.;)
God Bless, Jason
DavidCrow wrote:
It would not affect me or my family one iota. My wife and I are in charge of when the tv is on, and what it displays. I do not need any external input for that.
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El Corazon wrote:
you really do NOT want my resume. Honest.
Alright Man, to be honest, I hope you don't consider my statement as an insult, just trying to express some points.
AlbertDadze
Albert Dadze wrote:
just trying to express some points
As I was. I have a great deal of respect for the one-man shop, he's got to sell, develop and maintain everything. And make a living at it! (hopefully) I specialize nowadays, but I have a very strong respect for those individuals who go independant contractors and survive doing it. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Albert Dadze wrote:
So who on your pick is the greater?
The one man shop. He is developer, sys admin, net admin and all other IT guys. Go Rex go! :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Ed.Poore wrote:
I'm one of them
Your wish M'Lord? :laugh: seriously though, I may join you folks soon. Just not wanting to make the jump blind. I am officially registered and ready though. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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This is inspired by John Simmons' Message on Admin Rights. It is time to communicate something. I thought the developers wrote the apps on any OS that sysadmins and netadmins configure.:cool::cool: I thought they are even taught by developers, how to go around those stuff as how to configure, install and administer their various server apps, but from the article by John subjected Admin Rights?, developers are walking on fallowed grounds, begging to have access to the OS features developed by developers, how strange.:confused: Remember, the programmer cum developer are creators as in creative, sysadmins, netadmins are administrators, they use what has been created to achieve a general purpose. So who on your pick is the greater? I go for the developer cos development (i mean software) allows you to know all the stuff about database admin, sys admin, net admin, and even electrical engineering as in programming circuits (remember the machine language on some strange processor). So who on your pick is the greater?
AlbertDadze
For they have the power to change reality. There is no spoon.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
The 9 things Microsoft should be announcing at MIX07 (but won't)
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Apologies for the analogy, but .... Letting your developers have Admin rights is akin to letting the brick layers inpsect and signoff on the electrical for a house that's going up. Not a good idea. :)
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar]
Chris - I would concur, to a point. When I ran a development group, all I had to do to make the admins go away was to utter the 4 letter magical word: "unix". Poof, no where in site. :) There are three issues at play here: 1) arrogant developers. Since I'm one, I know what I'm talking about. 2) arrogant admins. Since I've suffered with them, I know they are out there. I had one admin tell me that my group did not need to log off every night. If they needed to get onto our machines, they knew how to "hack" in. This air of confidence made me curious, so I asked him how we did it. "Oh, we just toggle the power on the system. Then we can get to the login screen." I sat and stared at him for a while. :wtf: Did not illicit any response from him, so I inquired as to if he realized he might be crashing programs that might be running. Blank look again. 3) Managers that don't want to be bothered or are unable to understand the symbiotic relationship between the two groups. I spent some time educating the IT Manager as to how development groups operated. He was blown away... stunned by his own ignorance (not negative, just an observation). He also had the opportunity to educate me on some corporate directives he had to put in place. We came to an understanding relationship :)
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Overheard in a cubicle: "A project is just a bug under development." Seeking to rise above the intelligence of a one eared rabbit...
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For they have the power to change reality. There is no spoon.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
The 9 things Microsoft should be announcing at MIX07 (but won't)
Or defy/dismiss it. :eek:
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Overheard in a cubicle: "A project is just a bug under development." Seeking to rise above the intelligence of a one eared rabbit...
-
For they have the power to change reality. There is no spoon.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
The 9 things Microsoft should be announcing at MIX07 (but won't)
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For they have the power to change reality. There is no spoon.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
The 9 things Microsoft should be announcing at MIX07 (but won't)
"...It will all be rendered in later by a farm of SGI boxes" I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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What about the truck drivers, driving down the road or the steel worker in Detroit or the coal miner in the holes.:laugh: I feel an old Alabama song coming on.;)
God Bless, Jason
DavidCrow wrote:
It would not affect me or my family one iota. My wife and I are in charge of when the tv is on, and what it displays. I do not need any external input for that.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
I feel an old Alabama song coming on
:laugh: I was thinking Bruce Springsteen.
BW
Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.
-- Neil Peart -
Albert Dadze wrote:
just trying to express some points
As I was. I have a great deal of respect for the one-man shop, he's got to sell, develop and maintain everything. And make a living at it! (hopefully) I specialize nowadays, but I have a very strong respect for those individuals who go independant contractors and survive doing it. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Great El, in that respect you are right. the one-man shop is, but that kind of do-it-all-myself person will not last to his 40s if he is in 30s:laugh::laugh::laugh:
AlbertDadze
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In my experience if you care one iota for a stable network, you keep the developers as far away from server and network administration as you can. Furthermore, at any given site, a company's developers create a tiny fraction of the software that has to run on the network. Why are developers so arrogant as a group that they believe they understand the full complexity of the network they are dealing with (and understand ALL the other projects going on as well)?
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Agreed.
"A good athlete is the result of a good and worthy opponent." - David Crow
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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In my experience if you care one iota for a stable network, you keep the developers as far away from server and network administration as you can. Furthermore, at any given site, a company's developers create a tiny fraction of the software that has to run on the network. Why are developers so arrogant as a group that they believe they understand the full complexity of the network they are dealing with (and understand ALL the other projects going on as well)?
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Why are developers so arrogant as a group that they believe they understand the full complexity of the network they are dealing with (and understand ALL the other projects going on as well)?
Tongue-in-cheek replies aside, i think all of the groups tend to forget that their job is, in essence, to serve the other groups. Ultimately, they should be working together to serve the customer, whether that's internal or external. I want a build server. Scratch that, i need a build server. And a crash logging server. And a source control server. And a server to generate reports on all this and more. Some handy feeds wouldn't go amiss either. Assuming i can come up with a reasonably good justification for this, it's ITs duty to make it happen and keep it running smoothly. They're holding the keys so that they can unlock stuff, not key-ring-whip anyone trying to get some work done. I've worked in places where everything was locked down. Places like this, people would get bored and shove cheeseburgers into their computers. Why? Who knows? To keep them warm...? Point is, no-one was trusted with any real control over the machines, and so no-one felt that they had any responsibility as far as keeping them working. Place i'm working now is going through a long overhaul, aiming towards SOX compliance. Suddenly, almost no-one has a login for the production database. Problem is, most of us need a login to accomplish parts of our jobs. Guess what, we're still doing our jobs... ;) Treat your workers like children, and that's what they'll act like. And i think we all remember the sorts of deviltry we were up to as kids...
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It appears that everybody is under the impression that I approve of the documentation. You probably also blame Ken Burns for supporting slavery.
--Raymond Chen on MSDN
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"...It will all be rendered in later by a farm of SGI boxes" I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
dan neely wrote:
I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
It sounds real familiar, but google didn't help any.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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dan neely wrote:
I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
It sounds real familiar, but google didn't help any.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I'm not surprised. Even assuming my memory didn't mangle it, the site it's from has been down for years.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer