Who else think that the new VC.NET IDE is a big regression?
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardMichel Prévost wrote: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard Thank god that monstruosity is gone. Never used it. You're probably missing it because VS.NET is missing the visual designer for C++. I heard it should be available towards the end of the year. Michel Prévost wrote: - The Class View that constantly change the focus OK. A bug, not like VS6 wasn't plagued with bugs. SP1 should fix it. Michel Prévost wrote: - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) That's your opinion and your entitled to it. It doesn't make a difference to me. Michel Prévost wrote: - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) Again, it's your opinion but for me it's not even worth mentioning. Anyway NMAKE and Notepad are still available... be my guest! ;-)
Eddie Velasquez: A Squeezed Devil (Don't you just love that anagram craze?)
Checkout GUIDGen.NET -
You know, having used Visual C++ for something like 10 years, I've gone through many changes. Each time, there are a bunch of people that scream about how the changes suck and how the new compiler/ide/help/tools/etc.. are worse than before. Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form. If all these people were correct, then 10 years of bad changes should have made it far worse. My conclusion: People don't like change. Those that were used to the previous version dislike changing the way they work. Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse. That's not to say that I don't think the current IDE has flaws. It does, but those can and probably will be addressed over time. We know that there are compiler and probably IDE changes coming down the line, and service packs are almost a certainty. Nothing is ever perfect, and 1.0 products are usually worse than most. I think the new IDE is a huge step forward in many ways: I like the auto-hide docking bars for instance, this clears up a ton of screen real estate. I like the new "task" view, and I like the new help system. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote: Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form. If all these people were correct, then 10 years of bad changes should have made it far worse. And they say computer programmers are logical.... No, VC++ 1.x was much worse than VC++ 2.x and up. I think that was pretty much universally accepted. It improved through v 5, stalled in V6, then bagan a nosedive in v 7
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardVC 7 is a piece of crap. The only thing good about it is that it serves as a good example of bad UI design.. specifically, how the change from a UI that is custom-designe to do specific tasks, to a more generalized UI, can be a very bad thing. Even when the egregious bugs are fixed, it will be a poor alternative to VC6.
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeard.. I know that this is unlikely, given the incestuous relationshp between MS and CP, but this would be a really good poll. VS.NET: Abomination, or just plain Bad? :') Seriously, a more neutral title would be a good idea.
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardIt looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE. The only thing I had noticed was the "Set as Active Progect" being gone, but that didn't bother me much. The space is used so much more effectively in VS.NET. I used to run in 1920x1440 resolution in VS 6 just so I could get a decent amount of screen area. With VS.NET I can back down to 1600x1200 and have more space than I had with VS 6 in the higher resolution. As for the class wizard, I never liked that crazy thing anyway. :eek: -- Dana Holt Xenos Software
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.. I know that this is unlikely, given the incestuous relationshp between MS and CP, but this would be a really good poll. VS.NET: Abomination, or just plain Bad? :') Seriously, a more neutral title would be a good idea.
Jim A. Johnson wrote: given the incestuous relationshp between MS and CP, ALthough this may well be true, we should not discuss it. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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.. I know that this is unlikely, given the incestuous relationshp between MS and CP, but this would be a really good poll. VS.NET: Abomination, or just plain Bad? :') Seriously, a more neutral title would be a good idea.
I'd hardly call CPs relationship with MS as incestuous. They appreciate that we're pure MS, but there certainly is no puppetry going on here. You're right, maybe we should have a poll. The salient point is, I think, the poll should be constructive. What exactly sucks and not 'it all sucks so don't upgrade' I know lots of people who work on the IDE, and I'm sure Chris does as well. What exactly do you like and dislike? David http://www.dundas.com
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You know, having used Visual C++ for something like 10 years, I've gone through many changes. Each time, there are a bunch of people that scream about how the changes suck and how the new compiler/ide/help/tools/etc.. are worse than before. Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form. If all these people were correct, then 10 years of bad changes should have made it far worse. My conclusion: People don't like change. Those that were used to the previous version dislike changing the way they work. Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse. That's not to say that I don't think the current IDE has flaws. It does, but those can and probably will be addressed over time. We know that there are compiler and probably IDE changes coming down the line, and service packs are almost a certainty. Nothing is ever perfect, and 1.0 products are usually worse than most. I think the new IDE is a huge step forward in many ways: I like the auto-hide docking bars for instance, this clears up a ton of screen real estate. I like the new "task" view, and I like the new help system. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote: Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form I've also been using this product since 1.0 and if the best anyone can say is that the current product isn't worse than it was 10 years ago, why change it? Erik Funkenbusch wrote: Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse It's not about the simple inconvenience of learning something new. The bigger issue is one of retraining. This cost time and money and without a measurable gain in the improvement of the product, it's a waste of time and money. Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
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Why was the class wizard removed ? I thought the idea was to have more options on how to do stuff. True the class wizard was buggy. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
The ClassWizard was not removed. It's just in a different place, looks different and has some of its functionality moved to other areas of the IDE. In other words, MS UI designers justifying their jobs by moving bits around. Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
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It looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE. The only thing I had noticed was the "Set as Active Progect" being gone, but that didn't bother me much. The space is used so much more effectively in VS.NET. I used to run in 1920x1440 resolution in VS 6 just so I could get a decent amount of screen area. With VS.NET I can back down to 1600x1200 and have more space than I had with VS 6 in the higher resolution. As for the class wizard, I never liked that crazy thing anyway. :eek: -- Dana Holt Xenos Software
Dana Holt wrote: It looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE That's ok. In about 2 years it'll be redesigned for a completely new look and feel by a new batch of UI designers wanting to put their mark on the product. Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
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I'd hardly call CPs relationship with MS as incestuous. They appreciate that we're pure MS, but there certainly is no puppetry going on here. You're right, maybe we should have a poll. The salient point is, I think, the poll should be constructive. What exactly sucks and not 'it all sucks so don't upgrade' I know lots of people who work on the IDE, and I'm sure Chris does as well. What exactly do you like and dislike? David http://www.dundas.com
Main dislike? The fact that it was dramatically changed without a clear cut case for creating a more productive environment. I know that's old-fashioned since it has "cool toolbars and menus", but my clients don't pay me to learn new UIs. They pay me to code. Specific dislikes (These are some of the ones off the top of my head) 1) Changing a resource (such as the aboutbox template) won't result in a recompile 2) No longer can align controls with ctrl-arrow keys 3) Project dependencies easily get hosed so that it never thinks it's up to date 4) Can't close windows by hitting Esc. Have to manually click the X to close them. 5) Task list always getting in the way during debugs Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
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I'd hardly call CPs relationship with MS as incestuous. They appreciate that we're pure MS, but there certainly is no puppetry going on here. You're right, maybe we should have a poll. The salient point is, I think, the poll should be constructive. What exactly sucks and not 'it all sucks so don't upgrade' I know lots of people who work on the IDE, and I'm sure Chris does as well. What exactly do you like and dislike? David http://www.dundas.com
David Cunningham wrote: What exactly sucks The fact I can't find a way to turn off "copy without selection" like I could with VC6. ____________________ David Wulff hu·mour Pronunciation Key (hymr) n. & v. Chiefly British Dave's Code Project Screensaver and Wallpaper page.
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Visual Studio .NET truly...what's the technical term...oh yeah...SUCKS! :mad: I swear that VS.NET is literally the very antithesis of productivity. I work with this "product" every day for 10-14 hours a day so despite the fact that I make my living with it, I figure I can vent every once in a while too :) Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
Is there any CPians working for Microsoft VS.NET Team? If there is/are, maybe he/she/they may do something. Maxwell Chen Lets make bugs better!
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Erik Funkenbusch wrote: Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form I've also been using this product since 1.0 and if the best anyone can say is that the current product isn't worse than it was 10 years ago, why change it? Erik Funkenbusch wrote: Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse It's not about the simple inconvenience of learning something new. The bigger issue is one of retraining. This cost time and money and without a measurable gain in the improvement of the product, it's a waste of time and money. Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
Tom Archer wrote: I've also been using this product since 1.0 and if the best anyone can say is that the current product isn't worse than it was 10 years ago, why change it? All I can say is MONEY! :) Nick Parker
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I'd hardly call CPs relationship with MS as incestuous. They appreciate that we're pure MS, but there certainly is no puppetry going on here. You're right, maybe we should have a poll. The salient point is, I think, the poll should be constructive. What exactly sucks and not 'it all sucks so don't upgrade' I know lots of people who work on the IDE, and I'm sure Chris does as well. What exactly do you like and dislike? David http://www.dundas.com
David Cunningham wrote: I'd hardly call CPs relationship with MS as incestuous. Yeah I think the i word isn't correct, But as CP is now peddling MS wares it would be stupid for CP to bite the hand that feeds it as well. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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It looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE. The only thing I had noticed was the "Set as Active Progect" being gone, but that didn't bother me much. The space is used so much more effectively in VS.NET. I used to run in 1920x1440 resolution in VS 6 just so I could get a decent amount of screen area. With VS.NET I can back down to 1600x1200 and have more space than I had with VS 6 in the higher resolution. As for the class wizard, I never liked that crazy thing anyway. :eek: -- Dana Holt Xenos Software
Dana Holt wrote: It looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE. I am also in that group. VS.NET is a giant leap into the future compared to the old VC 6.0. I think the one person pegged it, that many people just do not like change. When I first got VS.NET, I was totally lost, but then I started seeing some of the enhancements to MFC like the CHtmlDialog and CHtmlEdit classes and other improvements and continued on with it. Once I moved into C# and really got used to the IDE (actually still working on that since I keep find all sorts of new cool features) I have grown to love this new IDE! I have many of the benifits of VB (the fact it does not take six months to build a simple program) and still a professional developement enviroment which is highly extensible. Still remember when I compiled my first program and saw the task list pop up with the list of errors.. I almost removed VS.NET, but then found out that was optional. Then added to that the fact I can be anywhere in my code and add a tag to the specific line of code I was on into the Task List. I could search and filter the task list. I have a command window where I can assign aliases to commands and execute any command in VS.NET or my own scripts. I can have toolbars that allow me to save code snipets and drag them off into my source at any time saving tons of typing, not to mention the multitude of wizards and code generators or the abilities of Enterprise Manager for database work built in. The list goes on and on. It is unreal that people who actually use this product for any length of time and find a reason to think VS6 is even in the same world as .NET. And to think, this is really only version 1 of .NET ;) I guess the part that amazes me most is people complain so loudly that they do not like the product, have they already forgot that they can uninstall it and go back into the dark ages? Why would you stay with a product you dislike so much, I sure would not! Maybe they can be real brave and uninstall Windows all the way back to DOS, remember most people thought Windows was a bloated fad and that it would not last (at least us old timers remember that).... Dana Holt wrote: The space is used so much more effectively in VS.NET. I used to run in 1920x1440 resolution in VS 6 just so I could get a decent amount of screen area. With VS.NET I can back down to 1600x1200 and have more space than I had with VS 6 in the higher resolution. What do you have
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Dana Holt wrote: It looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE. I am also in that group. VS.NET is a giant leap into the future compared to the old VC 6.0. I think the one person pegged it, that many people just do not like change. When I first got VS.NET, I was totally lost, but then I started seeing some of the enhancements to MFC like the CHtmlDialog and CHtmlEdit classes and other improvements and continued on with it. Once I moved into C# and really got used to the IDE (actually still working on that since I keep find all sorts of new cool features) I have grown to love this new IDE! I have many of the benifits of VB (the fact it does not take six months to build a simple program) and still a professional developement enviroment which is highly extensible. Still remember when I compiled my first program and saw the task list pop up with the list of errors.. I almost removed VS.NET, but then found out that was optional. Then added to that the fact I can be anywhere in my code and add a tag to the specific line of code I was on into the Task List. I could search and filter the task list. I have a command window where I can assign aliases to commands and execute any command in VS.NET or my own scripts. I can have toolbars that allow me to save code snipets and drag them off into my source at any time saving tons of typing, not to mention the multitude of wizards and code generators or the abilities of Enterprise Manager for database work built in. The list goes on and on. It is unreal that people who actually use this product for any length of time and find a reason to think VS6 is even in the same world as .NET. And to think, this is really only version 1 of .NET ;) I guess the part that amazes me most is people complain so loudly that they do not like the product, have they already forgot that they can uninstall it and go back into the dark ages? Why would you stay with a product you dislike so much, I sure would not! Maybe they can be real brave and uninstall Windows all the way back to DOS, remember most people thought Windows was a bloated fad and that it would not last (at least us old timers remember that).... Dana Holt wrote: The space is used so much more effectively in VS.NET. I used to run in 1920x1440 resolution in VS 6 just so I could get a decent amount of screen area. With VS.NET I can back down to 1600x1200 and have more space than I had with VS 6 in the higher resolution. What do you have
I'm glad to see someone else likes the IDE. Rocky Moore wrote: What do you have a 72 inch monitor or just really good eyes LOL! I have a 21" monitor and a little above average eyes! ;) -- Dana Holt Xenos Software
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Michel Prévost wrote: Who else think that the new VC.NET IDE is a big regression? Every real programmer, as opposed to the VB monkeys who will feel right at home. It looks like VB. Michel Prévost wrote: Disappearance of the Class Wizard Can't say I care about this one. I don't like the VB property page things, but I quite like adding my own methods by hand, at least I know it will be done right. Michel Prévost wrote: I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? Because we don't matter as much as the clowns who use VB. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: Every real programmer, as opposed to the VB monkeys who will feel right at home. It looks like VB Ahem, thanks. Great way to start the day. Christian Graus wrote: Because we don't matter as much as the clowns who use VB. Oh man, just gets better doesn't it. Really Christian, you die hard old guard mentalities must either wake up and catch the networked wave (i.e. the internet) or stop complaining and carry on doing what you know and love doing. We need die hards but we also need the shiny new naive ways. No sense in irrational comments like the above. Christian Graus wrote: I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. I had dinner with a client last night and he owns a Pizza delivery chain. The frightening part was when he said "Paul, we need to align our pizza company with the programmers, they eat lots of pizza!" hehe, reminded me of your sig. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardMichel Prévost wrote: I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. I may be wrong, but this is what I think. VS.NET is obviously very much internet-centric. The major advances are all in web-services, XML, XSL and other internet related areas. ASP.NET is light years ahead of ASP and thank god for that. For me VS.NET works like a peach. Everything is logical, the class view is slick and things are were I need them when I need them. The server explorer is fantastic (no more god awful SQL Enterprise Manager thank you!) But I do web development, a lot of it and I really think that VS.NET fits like a glove for that. However I can see why especially C++ coders though are pissed off. All this extra "junk" which they don't need, cannot really use and which slows down the IDE (that I will definitley agree on, VS.NET is a resource hog.) Bringing it all together into one IDE is a lovely idea, but who actually needs to be able to code some C++ then a bit of VB.NET and then a bit of C#? Some way of saying to the IDE, "listen punk I am a hard core C++er and I don't give a rats ass about web-whatsamacallit-services, so junk that bit and let me do my thing" is needed. Anyway, for me VS.NET is great but I can see (and have seen first hand) why C++ers are a tad unhappy. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardThe new IDE has its problems, the biggest one is that I don't think they thought about C++ programmers until late into the design stage. This isn't an IDE designed for MFC programmers but then we are supposed to be using it to write .NET apps where MFC doesn't have a place yet. The single IDE for all languages is a great concept, its just going to take them a while to get it right. I love being able to debug through several different languages without having to switch IDE. The first time you step from a C# form code into a managed C++ class is a real buzz - a long awaited feature for me. I'm lucky that I'm sticking with VC6 for MFC work, version 7 offers me nothing that I need. I have faith that Microsoft will get the IDE right, because lets face it they need us to develop software for their platform. Developers are the last people MS wants to upset. ;-) Michael :-)