New Pseudo Business Venture [modified]
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UPDATE [7:48 GMT Sept 13 2007] Thanks to everyone for all the helpful advice. I guess I'll just keep researching and learning. I got a couple of books and am starting to search the web for PHP, Python, DJango, and .Net I say "pseudo" because while I am willing to devote time and effort learning, coding, and doing other work, I am not going to put a lot of money into it. I've been out of the web and database development game for about ten years now, so I'd like to know how products compare. There's a lot of talk about PHP and MySQL these days since they are both open source and free. Startup costs are small comparatively when not plunking down some cash for a database development environment. I know we have mostly Microsoft purists here but how does PHP and MySQL compare to something like ASP .NET and Microsoft Access or SQL Server. Besides these two main choices are there alternatives? Like I've said I've been out of the game for awhile so when I was in the game I was using something like ASP v1.0 and then 2.0 came out and I don't even know if there ever was or is a 3.0 or you just graduate up to the .NET. Back in those old days, Microsoft had several advantages using ASP and IIS because of the threading and threading pools versus say a CGI/BIN program as I recall. I'm assuming Microsoft continued development in that area while CGI fell off the table and PHP and MySQL are the new flavors in town. I'm assuming that its relatively easy to find an affordable web host for any of the choices. Here are my general goals: 1) I need to develop a web-based database driven application. 2) Data could be stored in one large database that shares data from all users or separate data (tables, queries, reports) for each user. Perhaps, the old home directory architecture where the database engine itself uses individual data base files, or tables, stored within each user's directory. The individual directory and separate tables (or files) idea may make it easier for each user to export their own data and for all I know may speed up queries and report generation. Any ideas on this? 3) Finally, the application may be converted to a standalone desktop environment eventually for a single user (not an office). Or perhaps, it will be a hybrid, meaning the data is stored on the web server but through a scanner or keyboard input, the data is read from the individual's computer and uploaded to the web database server. Yeah, I know, don't ask programming questions here. Sorry, got carried away, bu
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UPDATE [7:48 GMT Sept 13 2007] Thanks to everyone for all the helpful advice. I guess I'll just keep researching and learning. I got a couple of books and am starting to search the web for PHP, Python, DJango, and .Net I say "pseudo" because while I am willing to devote time and effort learning, coding, and doing other work, I am not going to put a lot of money into it. I've been out of the web and database development game for about ten years now, so I'd like to know how products compare. There's a lot of talk about PHP and MySQL these days since they are both open source and free. Startup costs are small comparatively when not plunking down some cash for a database development environment. I know we have mostly Microsoft purists here but how does PHP and MySQL compare to something like ASP .NET and Microsoft Access or SQL Server. Besides these two main choices are there alternatives? Like I've said I've been out of the game for awhile so when I was in the game I was using something like ASP v1.0 and then 2.0 came out and I don't even know if there ever was or is a 3.0 or you just graduate up to the .NET. Back in those old days, Microsoft had several advantages using ASP and IIS because of the threading and threading pools versus say a CGI/BIN program as I recall. I'm assuming Microsoft continued development in that area while CGI fell off the table and PHP and MySQL are the new flavors in town. I'm assuming that its relatively easy to find an affordable web host for any of the choices. Here are my general goals: 1) I need to develop a web-based database driven application. 2) Data could be stored in one large database that shares data from all users or separate data (tables, queries, reports) for each user. Perhaps, the old home directory architecture where the database engine itself uses individual data base files, or tables, stored within each user's directory. The individual directory and separate tables (or files) idea may make it easier for each user to export their own data and for all I know may speed up queries and report generation. Any ideas on this? 3) Finally, the application may be converted to a standalone desktop environment eventually for a single user (not an office). Or perhaps, it will be a hybrid, meaning the data is stored on the web server but through a scanner or keyboard input, the data is read from the individual's computer and uploaded to the web database server. Yeah, I know, don't ask programming questions here. Sorry, got carried away, bu
PHP is not a real choice, not in the real world, unless you happen to really know it and not want to learn ASP.NET. MySQL is fine, if you must.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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PHP is not a real choice, not in the real world, unless you happen to really know it and not want to learn ASP.NET. MySQL is fine, if you must.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Well, I have been out of it for so long, that I'm certain that learning ASP .NET will be just as time consuming as learning PHP. We have not switched to .NET yet, I've been using VC6 and MFC for about 6 years now. I'm fairly good at self-teaching through books and articles but is there any reason you say PHP is not a real choice? Is there something wrong with it, say in speed, multiple threads / concurrency ? Again, I am looking at the cost aspect of it as well.
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UPDATE [7:48 GMT Sept 13 2007] Thanks to everyone for all the helpful advice. I guess I'll just keep researching and learning. I got a couple of books and am starting to search the web for PHP, Python, DJango, and .Net I say "pseudo" because while I am willing to devote time and effort learning, coding, and doing other work, I am not going to put a lot of money into it. I've been out of the web and database development game for about ten years now, so I'd like to know how products compare. There's a lot of talk about PHP and MySQL these days since they are both open source and free. Startup costs are small comparatively when not plunking down some cash for a database development environment. I know we have mostly Microsoft purists here but how does PHP and MySQL compare to something like ASP .NET and Microsoft Access or SQL Server. Besides these two main choices are there alternatives? Like I've said I've been out of the game for awhile so when I was in the game I was using something like ASP v1.0 and then 2.0 came out and I don't even know if there ever was or is a 3.0 or you just graduate up to the .NET. Back in those old days, Microsoft had several advantages using ASP and IIS because of the threading and threading pools versus say a CGI/BIN program as I recall. I'm assuming Microsoft continued development in that area while CGI fell off the table and PHP and MySQL are the new flavors in town. I'm assuming that its relatively easy to find an affordable web host for any of the choices. Here are my general goals: 1) I need to develop a web-based database driven application. 2) Data could be stored in one large database that shares data from all users or separate data (tables, queries, reports) for each user. Perhaps, the old home directory architecture where the database engine itself uses individual data base files, or tables, stored within each user's directory. The individual directory and separate tables (or files) idea may make it easier for each user to export their own data and for all I know may speed up queries and report generation. Any ideas on this? 3) Finally, the application may be converted to a standalone desktop environment eventually for a single user (not an office). Or perhaps, it will be a hybrid, meaning the data is stored on the web server but through a scanner or keyboard input, the data is read from the individual's computer and uploaded to the web database server. Yeah, I know, don't ask programming questions here. Sorry, got carried away, bu
If you want to stick with MS products (and who wouldn't), get hold of the Visual Studio Express versions that take your fancy (they are free), and SQL Server Express (which is also free).
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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Well, I have been out of it for so long, that I'm certain that learning ASP .NET will be just as time consuming as learning PHP. We have not switched to .NET yet, I've been using VC6 and MFC for about 6 years now. I'm fairly good at self-teaching through books and articles but is there any reason you say PHP is not a real choice? Is there something wrong with it, say in speed, multiple threads / concurrency ? Again, I am looking at the cost aspect of it as well.
I'm looking entirely about the ability to write object oriented, integrated and maintainable systems.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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UPDATE [7:48 GMT Sept 13 2007] Thanks to everyone for all the helpful advice. I guess I'll just keep researching and learning. I got a couple of books and am starting to search the web for PHP, Python, DJango, and .Net I say "pseudo" because while I am willing to devote time and effort learning, coding, and doing other work, I am not going to put a lot of money into it. I've been out of the web and database development game for about ten years now, so I'd like to know how products compare. There's a lot of talk about PHP and MySQL these days since they are both open source and free. Startup costs are small comparatively when not plunking down some cash for a database development environment. I know we have mostly Microsoft purists here but how does PHP and MySQL compare to something like ASP .NET and Microsoft Access or SQL Server. Besides these two main choices are there alternatives? Like I've said I've been out of the game for awhile so when I was in the game I was using something like ASP v1.0 and then 2.0 came out and I don't even know if there ever was or is a 3.0 or you just graduate up to the .NET. Back in those old days, Microsoft had several advantages using ASP and IIS because of the threading and threading pools versus say a CGI/BIN program as I recall. I'm assuming Microsoft continued development in that area while CGI fell off the table and PHP and MySQL are the new flavors in town. I'm assuming that its relatively easy to find an affordable web host for any of the choices. Here are my general goals: 1) I need to develop a web-based database driven application. 2) Data could be stored in one large database that shares data from all users or separate data (tables, queries, reports) for each user. Perhaps, the old home directory architecture where the database engine itself uses individual data base files, or tables, stored within each user's directory. The individual directory and separate tables (or files) idea may make it easier for each user to export their own data and for all I know may speed up queries and report generation. Any ideas on this? 3) Finally, the application may be converted to a standalone desktop environment eventually for a single user (not an office). Or perhaps, it will be a hybrid, meaning the data is stored on the web server but through a scanner or keyboard input, the data is read from the individual's computer and uploaded to the web database server. Yeah, I know, don't ask programming questions here. Sorry, got carried away, bu
JohnnyG wrote:
I know we have mostly Microsoft purists here but how does PHP and MySQL compare to something like ASP .NET and Microsoft Access or SQL Server. Besides these two main choices are there alternatives?
There are quite a few alternatives for you. PHP, as much as I dislike it, has proven to be a solid player. There are also several sub frameworks in PHP that attempt to deliver more power and ease to the developer. There are several Python based frameworks that have proven to be highly stable and scalable with Django being the current front runner. Also, Ruby On Rails has picked up a lot of momentum in the last year or two as being a very efficient system. The often argued downside to these alternative frameworks is that the tools aren't on the same level as Visual Studio. The oft argued upside to these is that you don't need a heavy tool like Visual Studio to get the same job done and that they are designed with developer efficiency in mind. Personally, while I think nothing comes close to MS's desktop application support in Visual Studio, I don't care for ASP.net. If you have time to play around, I'd say look at building a simple site using a few different frameworks to see what you like. In the past I loved ASP.net compared to ASP or PHP. But, once I did some work with Django and Ruby On Rails it completely changed my expectations for a web framework. Don't let it become a religious decision and have fun.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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PHP is not a real choice, not in the real world, unless you happen to really know it and not want to learn ASP.NET. MySQL is fine, if you must.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
PHP is not a real choice, not in the real world, unless you happen to really know it and not want to learn ASP.NET.
Nonsense. PHP is a perfectly legitimate choice for the real world, as demonstrated by Flickr, Digg, and countless other high profile websites. There are also a lot of other choices (Ruby, Python etc), making the question really why would you want to learn ASP.NET instead of why wouldn't you want to learn it.
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I'm looking entirely about the ability to write object oriented, integrated and maintainable systems.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm looking entirely about the ability to write object oriented, integrated and maintainable systems.
I used to do web dev almost exclusively in PHP. While PHP 5 is OO, I was not impressed. The fundamental problem is it's still script-based, seriously impacting the maintainability of the code. And as for 'integration'.. unless you already know how the code is related, figuring it out can be something of a chore.
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Christian Graus wrote:
PHP is not a real choice, not in the real world, unless you happen to really know it and not want to learn ASP.NET.
Nonsense. PHP is a perfectly legitimate choice for the real world, as demonstrated by Flickr, Digg, and countless other high profile websites. There are also a lot of other choices (Ruby, Python etc), making the question really why would you want to learn ASP.NET instead of why wouldn't you want to learn it.
Johnny ² wrote:
why would you want to learn ASP.NET
Let me see. Rich base class library. Rich functionality. Ease of development. Ease of integration with multiple data sources. Speed of development. Rich tutorial base. High speed code. Good third party support. Are these enough reasons to be getting on with?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Johnny ² wrote:
why would you want to learn ASP.NET
Let me see. Rich base class library. Rich functionality. Ease of development. Ease of integration with multiple data sources. Speed of development. Rich tutorial base. High speed code. Good third party support. Are these enough reasons to be getting on with?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Let me see. Rich base class library. Rich functionality. Ease of development. Ease of integration with multiple data sources. Speed of development. Rich tutorial base. High speed code. Good third party support. Are these enough reasons to be getting on with?
Check, check, and check. Now which language are we talking about! I wasn't dismissing ASP.NET, I was just countering Christian's assertion that PHP can't be used for any real-world development and the implied question of why anyone wouldn't want to use ASP.NET. As other's have pointed out, there's a bunch of alternatives, and PHP is a popular choice. It needn't become religious.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Let me see. Rich base class library. Rich functionality. Ease of development. Ease of integration with multiple data sources. Speed of development. Rich tutorial base. High speed code. Good third party support. Are these enough reasons to be getting on with?
Check, check, and check. Now which language are we talking about! I wasn't dismissing ASP.NET, I was just countering Christian's assertion that PHP can't be used for any real-world development and the implied question of why anyone wouldn't want to use ASP.NET. As other's have pointed out, there's a bunch of alternatives, and PHP is a popular choice. It needn't become religious.
I can't really comment on PHP - I've never used it. My comment was that these are perfectly valid reasons for using ASP.NET. I wasn't dissing PHP.;P
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Johnny ² wrote:
why would you want to learn ASP.NET
Let me see. Rich base class library. Rich functionality. Ease of development. Ease of integration with multiple data sources. Speed of development. Rich tutorial base. High speed code. Good third party support. Are these enough reasons to be getting on with?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
You forgot, greatly blurring the line between desktop and web applications. I surely would not build a desktop/client/server app in PHP, but with .NET, I can easily reuse most components (leaving out the presentation layer) in either without changing code. Now with WPF/Silverlight, the presentation layer is coming closer also. Plus you do not have to play with the PHP langauge which has been more hacked together than anything. You have choices with ASP.NET.
Rocky <>< Blog Post: Windows Live Authentication - Easy Stuff! Tech Blog Post: Vista ReadyBoost! Tech Sites: SilverlightCity.com ~ TheSilverlightDirectory.com ~ TheWPFDirectory.com
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I can't really comment on PHP - I've never used it. My comment was that these are perfectly valid reasons for using ASP.NET. I wasn't dissing PHP.;P
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
My comment was that these are perfectly valid reasons for using ASP.NET. I wasn't dissing PHP.
Then we can agree to agree that everything is great and right with the world, except for VB! ;P
Johnny ² wrote:
Then we can agree to agree that everything is great and right with the world, except for VB!
I was alright with that sentiment, but you went and spoiled it by swearing.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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UPDATE [7:48 GMT Sept 13 2007] Thanks to everyone for all the helpful advice. I guess I'll just keep researching and learning. I got a couple of books and am starting to search the web for PHP, Python, DJango, and .Net I say "pseudo" because while I am willing to devote time and effort learning, coding, and doing other work, I am not going to put a lot of money into it. I've been out of the web and database development game for about ten years now, so I'd like to know how products compare. There's a lot of talk about PHP and MySQL these days since they are both open source and free. Startup costs are small comparatively when not plunking down some cash for a database development environment. I know we have mostly Microsoft purists here but how does PHP and MySQL compare to something like ASP .NET and Microsoft Access or SQL Server. Besides these two main choices are there alternatives? Like I've said I've been out of the game for awhile so when I was in the game I was using something like ASP v1.0 and then 2.0 came out and I don't even know if there ever was or is a 3.0 or you just graduate up to the .NET. Back in those old days, Microsoft had several advantages using ASP and IIS because of the threading and threading pools versus say a CGI/BIN program as I recall. I'm assuming Microsoft continued development in that area while CGI fell off the table and PHP and MySQL are the new flavors in town. I'm assuming that its relatively easy to find an affordable web host for any of the choices. Here are my general goals: 1) I need to develop a web-based database driven application. 2) Data could be stored in one large database that shares data from all users or separate data (tables, queries, reports) for each user. Perhaps, the old home directory architecture where the database engine itself uses individual data base files, or tables, stored within each user's directory. The individual directory and separate tables (or files) idea may make it easier for each user to export their own data and for all I know may speed up queries and report generation. Any ideas on this? 3) Finally, the application may be converted to a standalone desktop environment eventually for a single user (not an office). Or perhaps, it will be a hybrid, meaning the data is stored on the web server but through a scanner or keyboard input, the data is read from the individual's computer and uploaded to the web database server. Yeah, I know, don't ask programming questions here. Sorry, got carried away, bu
Hi, Johnny. Honestly, you can go either way. Both have advantages and disadvantages. PHP may be easier for you to pick up with being familiar with classic ASP. However, a .NET backend to your website can also be re-used for a WinForms application. But, there's nothing that says you can't have a PHP-based website expose a few web services that a WinForms application could use to gather data from the site's database. Check out the tools for both and see which works best for you. There are the Express versions of Visual Studio for .NET, and several IDEs for PHP (I've played around a bit with Dev-PHP). There are a number of online tutorials for both frameworks/languages, and a ton of third-party support for both. Flynn
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