Microsoft .NET
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] LOL :-) Kannan
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All excellent points, as I said, I've never really used J2EE so it was only my first impressions I was going with. phykell wrote: I've never undestood this as a real benefit. I would rather have platform/OS independence over language independence any day I agree that platform and OS independence are important (and probably moreso than the ability to use different languages). However, assuming that .NET is not going to be used to sway people across from Java, its a really great thing to have, and one that I would think is going to have a great impact on how quickly applications can be developed. Take Paul Watson's entry into the MC++ as an example. phykell wrote: J2EE is effectively free. Right now you can develop EJBs, JSPs, Servlets, Applets, etc. using a text editor or free download of JBuilder You can still download the SDK for free, and the C# (and I think the VB) compilers are free, along with the ASP.NET ISAPI filter etc. So, .NET is effectively free also, of course you need to have the Windows O/S which you could make the point you have to pay for. As you point out, your enterprise clients usually have Windows, so is it not fair to say that the fact its MS is possibly over-played by the media in making .NET seem expensive?
Paul Ingles wrote: However, assuming that .NET is not going to be used to sway people across from Java, its a really great thing to have, and one that I would think is going to have a great impact on how quickly applications can be developed. Agreed, it's just that language independence is often used as an argument against J2EE. The fact is that VB.NET and C# are different to the original VB and certainly to C++. Sure, migration for those programmers may be eased by language independence but I consider this to be a small benefit compared to all the other benefits which J2EE (and .NET) offer. I see all .NET developers settling on a single language eventually, C#. Paul Ingles wrote: As you point out, your enterprise clients usually have Windows... That's my particular clients. They may also have PDAs and even RS6000 workstations. Anyway, as an enterprise developer and technical architect, I have no problems specifying Windows on the client to my company's client. Specifying Windows on the server side is (as they say) "a different kettle of fish". :) Paul Ingles wrote: As you point out, your enterprise clients usually have Windows, so is it not fair to say that the fact its MS is possibly over-played by the media in making .NET seem expensive? I agree that development may be free, but roll-out and commercial deployment certainly isn't. Currently, you can deploy a fully-functional, commercial system using JBOSS (or others) for absolutely nothing. There's a huge selection of open-source tools available to the developer including fully-featured IDEs and XML-based build tools. Furthermore, you don't need some hugely powerful Intel-based server to run your app server on and you don't need a hugely powerful development PC either. There are app servers, and dev tools which will run speedily on the lowest spec hardware. As an example, my dev machine on my current project is a P2/233 with 96MB RAM. My dev server which runs happily is a similar spec and happily serves multiple connections! I guess it's always difficult to discuss which is better on a technical level, .NET or J2EE, because they are both great infrastructures compared with what we've had previously. Ultimately, it depends on what your client/employer "wants" or more likely, "will accept" :) "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Folks It’s been quite some time after the release of .NET framework. It has several interesting aspects. Can .NET attain the height of J2EE? My question is how the enterprises going to look at .NET? Best Regards Venkatraman Kalyanam Chennai - India You are not an idiot till you open your lips (Anonymous)
I think at least a little of it depends on when Windows .NET server ever comes out. Just my two cents, but it seems that if I were running servers, I'd rather have one that has all the .NET stuff built in, and is designed to utilize .NET, than to have the .NET components plastered on to a 2000 box. Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
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Hmmm. Interesting logic. Let's say that I belong to a small tribe, an obscure race of people in the jungle with only 1000 people in our entire culture. What would your reaction be if I said that there were far more inferior Indians than people of my culture, because you have millions of people in your country and I only have 1000? I realize that this is all just troll bait to begin with, but the implication, subtle or not, is that MS developers are in general inferior to JSEE developers. And that's about as silly as my contrived example. A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Shame on you, Nish. You're too smart to fall for silliness of this nature. Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Hey, that's what I said! ... 'Developers should be distinguished by their experience and the area of software development they work in, not the language they "prefer" to use' "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] See, now that's just mean - I keep trying to get a VB programming friend of mine to look in on the Code Project. What's he going to think when he sees this sort of thing? (assuming he can find the power switch on the computer - only joking) :) "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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Christopher Duncan wrote: A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Hey, that's what I said! ... 'Developers should be distinguished by their experience and the area of software development they work in, not the language they "prefer" to use' "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
phykell wrote: Hey, that's what I said! ... :-O Oops... Indeed you did, and much more eloquently than I! :-D Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
I'm relatively sure that he meant statistically, e.g. a percentage. evilpen dot net :: gpg public key (ascii-armored)
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Nishant S wrote: assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders *sigh*
Paul Watson wrote: *sigh* :laugh: Don't be feeling that way, Paul... I like VB better, too, though mainly because I have so little time to learn and practice, and VB doesn't require much to get started. A quick and dirty utility I may need only once can be banged out in VB in an hour, while doing the same in VC would take me two weeks of alternating between searching through endless docs for what I need and trying out different code until it works cleanly. "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
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Nishant S wrote: A good majority of J2EE guys work without any kind of Development Interface Sun provides a free Forte for Java Community edition which is a pretty full featured IDE. There is also a free version of JBuilder IIRC. Nishant S wrote: In my company the Java people use either Ultraedit [on win32] or emacs [Linux] What!:wtf:! They don't use Vi? Shurely shome mishtake? bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: What!! They don't use Vi? Shurely shome mishtake? They'd better dump both Ultraedit and Emacs and use VIM - the best freely available editor on earth! ;P;P;P
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: What!! They don't use Vi? Shurely shome mishtake? They'd better dump both Ultraedit and Emacs and use VIM - the best freely available editor on earth! ;P;P;P
Haim Yulzari wrote: ;P;P;P What's happened to the smilies? :omg::omg::omg:
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Hmmm. Interesting logic. Let's say that I belong to a small tribe, an obscure race of people in the jungle with only 1000 people in our entire culture. What would your reaction be if I said that there were far more inferior Indians than people of my culture, because you have millions of people in your country and I only have 1000? I realize that this is all just troll bait to begin with, but the implication, subtle or not, is that MS developers are in general inferior to JSEE developers. And that's about as silly as my contrived example. A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Shame on you, Nish. You're too smart to fall for silliness of this nature. Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Yeah, but that doesn't mean he can't decide to use the best of the languages he knows how to use. Christopher Duncan wrote: Shame on you, Nish. You're too smart to fall for silliness of this nature. If you knew all the silly things I've did then you wouldn't call me smart. My smartness is unfortunately not uniform. It's spread out in different levels all over the place. I am sorta okay at some stuff and a total fool at others :-( Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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Christopher Duncan wrote: A good programmer is a good programmer. Language is irrelevant (because if it's not, then he's not a good programmer). Yeah, but that doesn't mean he can't decide to use the best of the languages he knows how to use. Christopher Duncan wrote: Shame on you, Nish. You're too smart to fall for silliness of this nature. If you knew all the silly things I've did then you wouldn't call me smart. My smartness is unfortunately not uniform. It's spread out in different levels all over the place. I am sorta okay at some stuff and a total fool at others :-( Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: I am sorta okay at some stuff and a total fool at others I believe you just summed up the entire human race in one simple sentance. :-) Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Haim Yulzari wrote: ;P;P;P What's happened to the smilies? :omg::omg::omg:
I believe that particular smiley requires a leading space to be properly rendered. ;P "Knock, knock." "Who's there?" "Recursion." "Recursion who?" "Knock, knock..."
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Oh, my. I can see what happens next. Now where did I put that asbestos suit? Actually he's sorta right. Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
Nishant S wrote: Even if only 20% of MS coders are bad compared to 80% of Java coders, there are still more bad MS coders than Java coders because the number of MS coders far far exceeds the number of Java coders [assuming people who use VB can be classified as coders] The funny thing is that these people who think they are "gods" because they use C or C++ is a joke. :laugh: In reality, there is a group of very skilled, knowledgeable, professional and *FORMALLY EDUCATED* developers using every programming language. :) I do not think a guy who learned C or C++ on his own has any right to look down on a guy who has a BS and MS in Computer Science who develops in VB. :rolleyes: This is twisted. One guy spent time to master A SINGLE language, while the other has a much wider knowledge base of languages, compliers, file processing and databases which makes him a complete developer not just a C hack. Rich