Sign of the times?
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I was wondering into town this lunchtime and spotted a sign outside "Office Angels" (a high street recruitment agency) saying "C# Programmers Wanted" (if anybody cares, the location was Bournemouth and the salary £35k pa). So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter... X|
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter...
Unfortunately, that trend has been happening since 1986 in the US. I made more money in 1985, adjusted for inflation, than I have since. This used to be a good industry to be in. Since then there have been disturbing trends to minimize my worth in a global economy and I have seen my earning power erode drastically as time goes by. X|
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
When my previous company decided to shrink up and close it's center here, I had applied for some admin positions. Ended up being reinvited for an interview and found out it was for a compnay I had worked for 4 years previous. same position, lower pay. I quickly walked away from that one. I do agree, it is the sign of the times however. I also think this goes along with our previous convo about the good and bad of headhunters. At the same time one would have to ask " "do I need the exp? do I need the money?" Once saw an ad for a " junior programmer" and the requirments needed were that of a Senior level. To me that says they want to keep costs low and not pay the tech alot, or the agency does not know their tech well. :/
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
I was wondering into town this lunchtime and spotted a sign outside "Office Angels" (a high street recruitment agency) saying "C# Programmers Wanted" (if anybody cares, the location was Bournemouth and the salary £35k pa). So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter...
///////////////// Groucho Marx Those are my principals, if you don't like them… I have others.
NightJammer wrote:
Ended up being reinvited for an interview and found out it was for a compnay I had worked for 4 years previous. same position, lower pay. I quickly walked away from that one.
Ouch. :~
NightJammer wrote:
I do agree, it is the sign of the times however. I also think this goes along with our previous convo about the good and bad of headhunters. At the same time one would have to ask " "do I need the exp? do I need the money?"
Agreed.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter...
Unfortunately, that trend has been happening since 1986 in the US. I made more money in 1985, adjusted for inflation, than I have since. This used to be a good industry to be in. Since then there have been disturbing trends to minimize my worth in a global economy and I have seen my earning power erode drastically as time goes by. X|
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Unfortunately, that trend has been happening since 1986 in the US
I suspect it goes a long way further back than that - commoditisation is a force which never rests, and will if left unchecked drive down renumeration, experience and quality in the name of (apparent, but illusionary) short term benefit. With that in mind, Uncle Bob's recent "The Birth of Craftsmanship"[^] presentation at ACCU was definitely a (rather welcome) attempt to sail against the wind. Nicolai Josuttis' "Welcome Crappy Code – The Death of Code Quality" (also from ACCU 2009) is where commoditisaion will take us if we are not careful. Anyway, I must crash. It's just gone midnight here, and way too late to be tossing around "Uncle Bob" level concepts.... :rolleyes:
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter...
Unfortunately, that trend has been happening since 1986 in the US. I made more money in 1985, adjusted for inflation, than I have since. This used to be a good industry to be in. Since then there have been disturbing trends to minimize my worth in a global economy and I have seen my earning power erode drastically as time goes by. X|
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesIt's all part of Microsoft's evil plot! They want to lower the market average! They want the market flooded with mediocre developers while they scoop up the cream of the crop at bargain prices. Why else would they make it so easy for the great unwashed public to program?
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I was wondering into town this lunchtime and spotted a sign outside "Office Angels" (a high street recruitment agency) saying "C# Programmers Wanted" (if anybody cares, the location was Bournemouth and the salary £35k pa). So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter... X|
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Yippie! I could move home and earn much less in a part of the world that costs twice as much. I'm all over that one, thanks for the tip :D I trust you, your beau and your livers survived ACCU?
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I was wondering into town this lunchtime and spotted a sign outside "Office Angels" (a high street recruitment agency) saying "C# Programmers Wanted" (if anybody cares, the location was Bournemouth and the salary £35k pa). So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter... X|
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Reminds me of when I emigrated to Aus. Had to register as unemployed and attend the local Unemployment office. Filled in my skills including "AS/400 Development". Couldn't believe it when they said they had a match in their database! Every other job was for mechanics, labourers etc. When I went for the interview, it turned out the company wanted to employ someone from overses - and as a condition therefore had to prove they couldn't get anyone local by advertising through the government offices; they never expected a) an AS/400 developer to be unemployed and b) to be visiting the loca unemployment benefits office! They admitted all his to me at the interview and offered me a contract position on the spot (implied agreement to keep schtum about the immigration deal)as an RPG Developer. I'd never written RPG in my life - but my wife had - so they employed us both an she trained me on the job! We'd hoped to remain unemployed a bit longer to take advantage of our proximity to the beach - but turned out to e a good move whichs started our long careers in Australia.
___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Reminds me of when I emigrated to Aus. Had to register as unemployed and attend the local Unemployment office. Filled in my skills including "AS/400 Development". Couldn't believe it when they said they had a match in their database! Every other job was for mechanics, labourers etc. When I went for the interview, it turned out the company wanted to employ someone from overses - and as a condition therefore had to prove they couldn't get anyone local by advertising through the government offices; they never expected a) an AS/400 developer to be unemployed and b) to be visiting the loca unemployment benefits office! They admitted all his to me at the interview and offered me a contract position on the spot (implied agreement to keep schtum about the immigration deal)as an RPG Developer. I'd never written RPG in my life - but my wife had - so they employed us both an she trained me on the job! We'd hoped to remain unemployed a bit longer to take advantage of our proximity to the beach - but turned out to e a good move whichs started our long careers in Australia.
___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Jammy git(s)
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I was wondering into town this lunchtime and spotted a sign outside "Office Angels" (a high street recruitment agency) saying "C# Programmers Wanted" (if anybody cares, the location was Bournemouth and the salary £35k pa). So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter... X|
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
If this is your first indicator that these times have signs (and I know it isn't) then wow. :-D What this is to me is a sign in the development of or maybe the refinement of classes within "developers". If you see that sign you will laugh, keep walking to the cafe', wip out your notepad and work casually on your project before your 2:00 meeting. If I see that it's because I'm on my way to the climbing gym to practice "maintenance" of a different kind. However, Beasley that 18 year old kid down the street that learned HTML while tuning his MySpace page is going to think "Wow! A real programming job!" He will go inside. The company on the inside will talk with him for 3 minutes and say, "Wow a real programmer." He'll get the job working for that non-profit recycle newspaper read by 5000 bored people who eat lunch at those quick-eats places and his job will be setting up the advertisers list online for visitors to the free newspapers site who want to advertise. He'll love it. The company will love him and the rest of us will use that paper to pad the items we are shipping to various parts of the world. It's no more a sign of the times than it ever has been. It's simply a cheap net, designed to catch a cheap fish that will get deep-fried in 4,000,000 grams of fat oil and sit under a heat lamp for 2 hours before it is served to the college student getting a major in political science in that urban town of 4,000 people. The rest of us will never find jobs that way and probably never have. Word of mouth will get out and land us work with talented companies and talented people. If after 6 months we discover the company is neither talented or viable and the same is said of it's "people" we'll move on in the same manner in which we arrived. It won't take us long to land a gig that will line our wallets for 8 to N years and the food chain is maintained and maybe even better for the "Administrative C# Developer". When I see stuff like that my first thought is, "I wonder if I can get fries with that." Not because I like fries but because if the rest of menu sucks and I need food they are at least pretty hard to screw up. There are signs and there are times but rarely are the multiples of each other. Obama or whoever else you follow is a sign of the times. Like him or hate him he is more a sign of the times than a job description will be at least for the next 3.8 years.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
Unfortunately, that trend has been happening since 1986 in the US
I suspect it goes a long way further back than that - commoditisation is a force which never rests, and will if left unchecked drive down renumeration, experience and quality in the name of (apparent, but illusionary) short term benefit. With that in mind, Uncle Bob's recent "The Birth of Craftsmanship"[^] presentation at ACCU was definitely a (rather welcome) attempt to sail against the wind. Nicolai Josuttis' "Welcome Crappy Code – The Death of Code Quality" (also from ACCU 2009) is where commoditisaion will take us if we are not careful. Anyway, I must crash. It's just gone midnight here, and way too late to be tossing around "Uncle Bob" level concepts.... :rolleyes:
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Very good. But I doubt anyone knowingly writes crap code.
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Jammy git(s)
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Absolutely! I would point out, though, without blowing my own trumpet too much, that it wouldn't have worked out if I hadn't become an expert in RPG in a very short period of time. I still shudde rwhen i think of programming in RPG though!
___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Absolutely! I would point out, though, without blowing my own trumpet too much, that it wouldn't have worked out if I hadn't become an expert in RPG in a very short period of time. I still shudde rwhen i think of programming in RPG though!
___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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124 oz dollars a day? That is woeful.
------------------------------------ "Possessions make you poor, wealth is measurable only in experience." Sun Tzu 621BC
Saw the same thing in London in 2001, senior dev for 10 pound an hour. Bottom feeding, scum sucking, rotten mongrel agencies trying it on every time....
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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"Report Program Generator" - or were you just making a joke? :)
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Henry Minute wrote:
Hi Anna, long time no hear.
I've been buried in paperwork (last year's accounts - ugh!) and the ACCU Conference recently, but I'm back now (just in time to go on holiday next week. Yay!)
Henry Minute wrote:
The thing is, we might be in the Admin Pool, but are we angels?
I try not to be. Angels don't generally carry throwing daggers. ;)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
Angels don't generally carry throwing daggers
No, but when they do, they have a tremendous element of surprise!!
Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!! Booger Mobile - Camp Quality esCarpade 2010
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If this is your first indicator that these times have signs (and I know it isn't) then wow. :-D What this is to me is a sign in the development of or maybe the refinement of classes within "developers". If you see that sign you will laugh, keep walking to the cafe', wip out your notepad and work casually on your project before your 2:00 meeting. If I see that it's because I'm on my way to the climbing gym to practice "maintenance" of a different kind. However, Beasley that 18 year old kid down the street that learned HTML while tuning his MySpace page is going to think "Wow! A real programming job!" He will go inside. The company on the inside will talk with him for 3 minutes and say, "Wow a real programmer." He'll get the job working for that non-profit recycle newspaper read by 5000 bored people who eat lunch at those quick-eats places and his job will be setting up the advertisers list online for visitors to the free newspapers site who want to advertise. He'll love it. The company will love him and the rest of us will use that paper to pad the items we are shipping to various parts of the world. It's no more a sign of the times than it ever has been. It's simply a cheap net, designed to catch a cheap fish that will get deep-fried in 4,000,000 grams of fat oil and sit under a heat lamp for 2 hours before it is served to the college student getting a major in political science in that urban town of 4,000 people. The rest of us will never find jobs that way and probably never have. Word of mouth will get out and land us work with talented companies and talented people. If after 6 months we discover the company is neither talented or viable and the same is said of it's "people" we'll move on in the same manner in which we arrived. It won't take us long to land a gig that will line our wallets for 8 to N years and the food chain is maintained and maybe even better for the "Administrative C# Developer". When I see stuff like that my first thought is, "I wonder if I can get fries with that." Not because I like fries but because if the rest of menu sucks and I need food they are at least pretty hard to screw up. There are signs and there are times but rarely are the multiples of each other. Obama or whoever else you follow is a sign of the times. Like him or hate him he is more a sign of the times than a job description will be at least for the next 3.8 years.
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obama embraces free trade and "free trade" as we know it goes only one direction - goods flow from China to the rest of the world. But labor isn't flowing freely and union only exists in Western World. See where the problem is?
dev
The Chinese have to unionize?
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The Chinese have to unionize?
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Very good. But I doubt anyone knowingly writes crap code.
Perhaps not, but the fact is most code is crap if assessed from a modern perspective (testability, maintainability, complexity, defect count, etc.) At the very least, there are a lot of developers out there who are inadeqately trained, and rely on their employers for training and mentoring (both of which are likely to be out of date and inadequate). It's a real problem - of that I don't think there can be any doubt.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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It's all part of Microsoft's evil plot! They want to lower the market average! They want the market flooded with mediocre developers while they scoop up the cream of the crop at bargain prices. Why else would they make it so easy for the great unwashed public to program?
IBM started it, remember? Any large corporation is likely to do the same.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Yippie! I could move home and earn much less in a part of the world that costs twice as much. I'm all over that one, thanks for the tip :D I trust you, your beau and your livers survived ACCU?
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MidwestLimey wrote:
Yippie! I could move home and earn much less in a part of the world that costs twice as much. I'm all over that one, thanks for the tip
Yep, that's the UK. At least here in Bournemouth we have a plentyful supply of ice cream, though!
MidwestLimey wrote:
I trust you, your beau and your livers survived ACCU?
We did indeed...after being Lakosed last year I was relatively careful when I made an appearance in the bar, and managed to avoid the worst of it. :) The Conference was great as ever - I must get around to writing up my notes! :-O
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"