Sign of the times?
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Perhaps not, but the fact is most code is crap if assessed from a modern perspective (testability, maintainability, complexity, defect count, etc.) At the very least, there are a lot of developers out there who are inadeqately trained, and rely on their employers for training and mentoring (both of which are likely to be out of date and inadequate). It's a real problem - of that I don't think there can be any doubt.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Agree entirely - too many people take their own career development for granted. Reckoning that if they work hard and do what their bosses tell them they'll be alright. It creates hasty code and a perceived dumbing down of IT stock ... and for the people in question they suddenly find that their 'skills' no longer have a market worth talking about.
"If you reward everyone, there will not be enough to go around, so you offer a reward to one in order to encourage everyone." Mei Yaochen in the 'Doing Battle' section of Sun Tzu's: Art of War. .
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
salary £35k pa
Another sign of the times is that this is the most commonly quoted salary for a senior dev in the UK and it's been unchanged for at least the past decade - hence falling real income... :(
Kevin
I've noticed. You can actually significantly earn more than that working as a driver for London Underground these days.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Agree entirely - too many people take their own career development for granted. Reckoning that if they work hard and do what their bosses tell them they'll be alright. It creates hasty code and a perceived dumbing down of IT stock ... and for the people in question they suddenly find that their 'skills' no longer have a market worth talking about.
"If you reward everyone, there will not be enough to go around, so you offer a reward to one in order to encourage everyone." Mei Yaochen in the 'Doing Battle' section of Sun Tzu's: Art of War. .
Too true. The real problem starts when those devs start mentoring newcomers. In such an environment it is very hard to foster a positive attitude to self-learning and quality improvement.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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I was wondering into town this lunchtime and spotted a sign outside "Office Angels" (a high street recruitment agency) saying "C# Programmers Wanted" (if anybody cares, the location was Bournemouth and the salary £35k pa). So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter... X|
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
I have just come back into looking for work (5 years .net experience) and I am seeing a serious decline on the rates, several asp.net web developer roles at £150-200, lots at £200-250 well down on what I was expecting. Also there are quite a few perm jobs advertised at £25-35k which a year or two back would have been £35-45k+ Is this just hiring managers and recruiters putting the squeeze on us because there are more applicants so they can and see who will accept lower rates just to get employed? Or are recruiters (for contract) advertising at lower rates in an attempt to maximise their agency margin?
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I have just come back into looking for work (5 years .net experience) and I am seeing a serious decline on the rates, several asp.net web developer roles at £150-200, lots at £200-250 well down on what I was expecting. Also there are quite a few perm jobs advertised at £25-35k which a year or two back would have been £35-45k+ Is this just hiring managers and recruiters putting the squeeze on us because there are more applicants so they can and see who will accept lower rates just to get employed? Or are recruiters (for contract) advertising at lower rates in an attempt to maximise their agency margin?
m3ntat_ wrote:
Is this just hiring managers and recruiters putting the squeeze on us because there are more applicants so they can and see who will accept lower rates just to get employed? Or are recruiters (for contract) advertising at lower rates in an attempt to maximise their agency margin?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if rates were depressed because the clients are twitchy at the moment (understandable) but I'm not sure to be honest - I've been out of the mainstream when it comes to salary for 5 years now (when you start your own company you can't expect to be able to pay anywhere near market rates for a while) so my perceptions are slightly skewed.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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124 oz dollars a day? That is woeful.
------------------------------------ "Possessions make you poor, wealth is measurable only in experience." Sun Tzu 621BC
If someone does take that salary, they should be flogged! :mad:
You are here - through no fault of mine!
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code-frog wrote:
If this is your first indicator that these times have signs (and I know it isn't) then wow.
Of course not. We have the kangeroo circus (which is unusually entertaining this week) in the House of Commons for that!
code-frog wrote:
However, Beasley that 18 year old kid down the street that learned HTML while tuning his MySpace page is going to think "Wow! A real programming job!" He will go inside.
I thought that at first, but the salary indicates they are looking for someone with experience (it's what I was earning 10 years ago as a senior dev, having moved from my previous company for a 50% rise - you get the idea) - so I doubt an inexperienced walk-in would get an interview. More likely they are looking for someone with 2-5 years experience and a degree. I don't take signs too literally BTW* - it was just the first post title I could think of last night (I was working until 11pm, so the thread here was my wind-down). I just thought it was interesting, and wondered what others would think of it. * especially the ones that say "No Entry". I mean, really! ;P
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
You might call my reply (or at least I was thinking of it as) some very watery, weak humor. I understood your signs very well and I have to be honest. I don't like the signs I'm seeing.
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I was wondering into town this lunchtime and spotted a sign outside "Office Angels" (a high street recruitment agency) saying "C# Programmers Wanted" (if anybody cares, the location was Bournemouth and the salary £35k pa). So now we're in the admin pool, it seems. I must get me a new typewriter... X|
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
I'd be willing to move to England for that sallary. Specially being programmer specialized in C#. If it wanted WinForms I would be thrilled.
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To be honest it probably hasn't - after all, how many professional software developers would think of looking at the jobs posted by a temp agency?
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
how about one that got slammed with a surprise lawsuit from the ex wife a month before the youngest child turns 21 and she cannot extract any more money anymore. Suddenly needed a "extra" $2500 to get a decent lawyer. Looked at temp firms even tried some sites like "RentaCoder.com" .. turns out there are a whole lot of people out there, mostly with little experience that will work for less than Starbucks pays in my neck of the woods. To add insult to injury, I had 2 bidders ask me what I;d charge to "fix" the low bidders code ( you get what you pay for)
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m3ntat_ wrote:
Is this just hiring managers and recruiters putting the squeeze on us because there are more applicants so they can and see who will accept lower rates just to get employed? Or are recruiters (for contract) advertising at lower rates in an attempt to maximise their agency margin?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if rates were depressed because the clients are twitchy at the moment (understandable) but I'm not sure to be honest - I've been out of the mainstream when it comes to salary for 5 years now (when you start your own company you can't expect to be able to pay anywhere near market rates for a while) so my perceptions are slightly skewed.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
My perspective is skewed to the midwest these days, but St Louis has been hammered by the buy-out of AB and the financial melt down (AG Edwards, Scottrade and Wachovia to name a few). As a result, word on the street is that contract rates are down 15% from last year. Nonetheless, someone with 5yrs experience and talent should have little trouble picking up $40/h through an agency or $60 freelance around here. Salaries: not a clue, although this year I'll most likely make less for the first time since '01. Cyclical I think.
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I'd be willing to move to England for that sallary. Specially being programmer specialized in C#. If it wanted WinForms I would be thrilled.
I got curious after reading this, and after a quick google my unscientific analysis is that goods and service in SE England is going to cost 3-5 times more then say, Rio. So divide that salary by 4ish to get a good feel.
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You might call my reply (or at least I was thinking of it as) some very watery, weak humor. I understood your signs very well and I have to be honest. I don't like the signs I'm seeing.
No worries. :) I don't like it either - every year we attend the ACCU Conference it seems to be a bigger topic of discussion. People are getting more and more worried.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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My perspective is skewed to the midwest these days, but St Louis has been hammered by the buy-out of AB and the financial melt down (AG Edwards, Scottrade and Wachovia to name a few). As a result, word on the street is that contract rates are down 15% from last year. Nonetheless, someone with 5yrs experience and talent should have little trouble picking up $40/h through an agency or $60 freelance around here. Salaries: not a clue, although this year I'll most likely make less for the first time since '01. Cyclical I think.
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I'm pretty much out of it (we generally don't go for freelance work these days, and we're relying more and more on product sales) so I'm not up to speed myself. That said, $40 seems awully low - the last time I did any freelancing in the UK the rate was £38/hr - which is more like $57 (at current exchange rates; at the time it was more like $80). I reckon rates/salaries will pick up a little by mid next year, but my concern is the long term de-skilling trend. That doesn't benefit any of us.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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how about one that got slammed with a surprise lawsuit from the ex wife a month before the youngest child turns 21 and she cannot extract any more money anymore. Suddenly needed a "extra" $2500 to get a decent lawyer. Looked at temp firms even tried some sites like "RentaCoder.com" .. turns out there are a whole lot of people out there, mostly with little experience that will work for less than Starbucks pays in my neck of the woods. To add insult to injury, I had 2 bidders ask me what I;d charge to "fix" the low bidders code ( you get what you pay for)
Unfortunately you can never discount the unexpected -in such cases you really have to take a judgement call. I've been there with the divorce courts and fees myself, so my sympathies. :rose:
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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I'd be willing to move to England for that sallary. Specially being programmer specialized in C#. If it wanted WinForms I would be thrilled.
be careful - living costs in the UK are astronomical! You'll also get hit for tax (20%) and National Insurance (11.5% IIRC).
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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I got curious after reading this, and after a quick google my unscientific analysis is that goods and service in SE England is going to cost 3-5 times more then say, Rio. So divide that salary by 4ish to get a good feel.
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Humm, that would probably make my willingness change if it turned out to be true.
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I'm pretty much out of it (we generally don't go for freelance work these days, and we're relying more and more on product sales) so I'm not up to speed myself. That said, $40 seems awully low - the last time I did any freelancing in the UK the rate was £38/hr - which is more like $57 (at current exchange rates; at the time it was more like $80). I reckon rates/salaries will pick up a little by mid next year, but my concern is the long term de-skilling trend. That doesn't benefit any of us.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
reckon rates/salaries will pick up a little by mid next year, but my concern is the long term de-skilling trend. That doesn't benefit any of us.
Least of all the clients and customers. I've been on the back end of a few projects that that hired, shall we say, commodity class 'developers'. Lost customers, a bad reputation, no referals and hiring a bunch of seniors to come in and clean up the mess costs a bloody fortune, but I see it all the time. Sure, trivial apps can be written by any script kiddie unlike 15 years ago. However the projects I see and work on now have a sloc well above 100k to several million. Yet despite decades of study on managing software projects, the idea still perpetuates that you just scale up with a lot more cheapo 'developers' to kick it out the door on time. Rant over!
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be careful - living costs in the UK are astronomical! You'll also get hit for tax (20%) and National Insurance (11.5% IIRC).
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Right, the only thing that would worry me are the living costs. As for taxes, not much different from here in Brazil. But food, living and leisure worries me. That would be one of the first things that I put in the formula before making a choice on moving. Here, the living cost is usually not too high, but the salaries are also not high, so need to take everything into account to see if it is worth it. Regards, Fábio
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Right, the only thing that would worry me are the living costs. As for taxes, not much different from here in Brazil. But food, living and leisure worries me. That would be one of the first things that I put in the formula before making a choice on moving. Here, the living cost is usually not too high, but the salaries are also not high, so need to take everything into account to see if it is worth it. Regards, Fábio
A lot depends on your circumstances and needs, but accommodation in the UK can easily amount to between a quarter and a half of salary (flats here (Bournemouth) routinely rent for £850 per month, which is nearly half of a £35k salary). Food and travel (especially the latter) prices are similarly high.
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
reckon rates/salaries will pick up a little by mid next year, but my concern is the long term de-skilling trend. That doesn't benefit any of us.
Least of all the clients and customers. I've been on the back end of a few projects that that hired, shall we say, commodity class 'developers'. Lost customers, a bad reputation, no referals and hiring a bunch of seniors to come in and clean up the mess costs a bloody fortune, but I see it all the time. Sure, trivial apps can be written by any script kiddie unlike 15 years ago. However the projects I see and work on now have a sloc well above 100k to several million. Yet despite decades of study on managing software projects, the idea still perpetuates that you just scale up with a lot more cheapo 'developers' to kick it out the door on time. Rant over!
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I feel your pain, believe me. :rose:
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"