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Sign of the times?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved The Lounge
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  • M MidwestLimey

    My perspective is skewed to the midwest these days, but St Louis has been hammered by the buy-out of AB and the financial melt down (AG Edwards, Scottrade and Wachovia to name a few). As a result, word on the street is that contract rates are down 15% from last year. Nonetheless, someone with 5yrs experience and talent should have little trouble picking up $40/h through an agency or $60 freelance around here. Salaries: not a clue, although this year I'll most likely make less for the first time since '01. Cyclical I think.

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    Anna Jayne Metcalfe
    wrote on last edited by
    #61

    I'm pretty much out of it (we generally don't go for freelance work these days, and we're relying more and more on product sales) so I'm not up to speed myself. That said, $40 seems awully low - the last time I did any freelancing in the UK the rate was £38/hr - which is more like $57 (at current exchange rates; at the time it was more like $80). I reckon rates/salaries will pick up a little by mid next year, but my concern is the long term de-skilling trend. That doesn't benefit any of us.

    Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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    • F fred_

      how about one that got slammed with a surprise lawsuit from the ex wife a month before the youngest child turns 21 and she cannot extract any more money anymore. Suddenly needed a "extra" $2500 to get a decent lawyer. Looked at temp firms even tried some sites like "RentaCoder.com" .. turns out there are a whole lot of people out there, mostly with little experience that will work for less than Starbucks pays in my neck of the woods. To add insult to injury, I had 2 bidders ask me what I;d charge to "fix" the low bidders code ( you get what you pay for)

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      Anna Jayne Metcalfe
      wrote on last edited by
      #62

      Unfortunately you can never discount the unexpected -in such cases you really have to take a judgement call. I've been there with the divorce courts and fees myself, so my sympathies. :rose:

      Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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      • F Fabio Franco

        I'd be willing to move to England for that sallary. Specially being programmer specialized in C#. If it wanted WinForms I would be thrilled.

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        Anna Jayne Metcalfe
        wrote on last edited by
        #63

        be careful - living costs in the UK are astronomical! You'll also get hit for tax (20%) and National Insurance (11.5% IIRC).

        Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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        • M MidwestLimey

          I got curious after reading this, and after a quick google my unscientific analysis is that goods and service in SE England is going to cost 3-5 times more then say, Rio. So divide that salary by 4ish to get a good feel.

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          Fabio Franco
          wrote on last edited by
          #64

          Humm, that would probably make my willingness change if it turned out to be true.

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          • A Anna Jayne Metcalfe

            I'm pretty much out of it (we generally don't go for freelance work these days, and we're relying more and more on product sales) so I'm not up to speed myself. That said, $40 seems awully low - the last time I did any freelancing in the UK the rate was £38/hr - which is more like $57 (at current exchange rates; at the time it was more like $80). I reckon rates/salaries will pick up a little by mid next year, but my concern is the long term de-skilling trend. That doesn't benefit any of us.

            Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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            MidwestLimey
            wrote on last edited by
            #65

            Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:

            reckon rates/salaries will pick up a little by mid next year, but my concern is the long term de-skilling trend. That doesn't benefit any of us.

            Least of all the clients and customers. I've been on the back end of a few projects that that hired, shall we say, commodity class 'developers'. Lost customers, a bad reputation, no referals and hiring a bunch of seniors to come in and clean up the mess costs a bloody fortune, but I see it all the time. Sure, trivial apps can be written by any script kiddie unlike 15 years ago. However the projects I see and work on now have a sloc well above 100k to several million. Yet despite decades of study on managing software projects, the idea still perpetuates that you just scale up with a lot more cheapo 'developers' to kick it out the door on time. Rant over!

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            • A Anna Jayne Metcalfe

              be careful - living costs in the UK are astronomical! You'll also get hit for tax (20%) and National Insurance (11.5% IIRC).

              Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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              Fabio Franco
              wrote on last edited by
              #66

              Right, the only thing that would worry me are the living costs. As for taxes, not much different from here in Brazil. But food, living and leisure worries me. That would be one of the first things that I put in the formula before making a choice on moving. Here, the living cost is usually not too high, but the salaries are also not high, so need to take everything into account to see if it is worth it. Regards, Fábio

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              • F Fabio Franco

                Right, the only thing that would worry me are the living costs. As for taxes, not much different from here in Brazil. But food, living and leisure worries me. That would be one of the first things that I put in the formula before making a choice on moving. Here, the living cost is usually not too high, but the salaries are also not high, so need to take everything into account to see if it is worth it. Regards, Fábio

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                Anna Jayne Metcalfe
                wrote on last edited by
                #67

                A lot depends on your circumstances and needs, but accommodation in the UK can easily amount to between a quarter and a half of salary (flats here (Bournemouth) routinely rent for £850 per month, which is nearly half of a £35k salary). Food and travel (especially the latter) prices are similarly high.

                Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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                • M MidwestLimey

                  Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:

                  reckon rates/salaries will pick up a little by mid next year, but my concern is the long term de-skilling trend. That doesn't benefit any of us.

                  Least of all the clients and customers. I've been on the back end of a few projects that that hired, shall we say, commodity class 'developers'. Lost customers, a bad reputation, no referals and hiring a bunch of seniors to come in and clean up the mess costs a bloody fortune, but I see it all the time. Sure, trivial apps can be written by any script kiddie unlike 15 years ago. However the projects I see and work on now have a sloc well above 100k to several million. Yet despite decades of study on managing software projects, the idea still perpetuates that you just scale up with a lot more cheapo 'developers' to kick it out the door on time. Rant over!

                  10110011001111101010101000001000001101001010001010100000100000101000001000111100010110001011001011

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                  Anna Jayne Metcalfe
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #68

                  I feel your pain, believe me. :rose:

                  Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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                  • A Anna Jayne Metcalfe

                    A lot depends on your circumstances and needs, but accommodation in the UK can easily amount to between a quarter and a half of salary (flats here (Bournemouth) routinely rent for £850 per month, which is nearly half of a £35k salary). Food and travel (especially the latter) prices are similarly high.

                    Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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                    Fabio Franco
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #69

                    WOW!! I think I better stick around here for now :laugh: Thanks Fábio

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                    • A Anna Jayne Metcalfe

                      "Big ba-ba-boom!" (or is that an exploding sheep...?)

                      Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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                      Lost User
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #70

                      Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:

                      or is that an exploding sheep...?

                      Might be[^] :rolleyes:

                      Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

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                      • A Anna Jayne Metcalfe

                        A lot depends on your circumstances and needs, but accommodation in the UK can easily amount to between a quarter and a half of salary (flats here (Bournemouth) routinely rent for £850 per month, which is nearly half of a £35k salary). Food and travel (especially the latter) prices are similarly high.

                        Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

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                        MidwestLimey
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #71

                        £850 is more than my mortgage on my 3 bed, 2 bath, 2 car garage house in the 'burbs. Less then my sis' mortgage in south London though! Painfull just thinking about it. My (then gf) wife and I almost moved to Blighty in '02 after the tech crash, but economically we just couldn't justify it, it amounted to a 50% pay cut with everything considered. Baring the big one (earthquake) hitting in my tenure here, I doubt I'll be leaving.

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