Why Facts Don't Win Arguments
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So I guess you are misinformed. I have changed my beliefs in life, I used to be like you. I thought the Fed was a good idea, and that government should do a lot. I have changed my views because I realized I was wrong, and I admit that to myself whenever I think about my past beliefs. You on the other hand...
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I have changed my beliefs in life
...but not to the better.
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." (DNA)
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)It's not just a disagreement about the facts that won't convince people. I found early on that people might accept the facts and the logic of an argument but still just dismiss it. As an example, in my youth I had to attend a planning meeting at an engineering company. Part of the meeting was to plan production of a widget that customers would need to install in the next six months. Estimates for the number required went from 50,000 upwards. I just asked How many customers? (ans 200), how many sites/customer? (ans 4), how many widgets/site? (ans 10). So suggested we are looking at about 8,000. This was dismissed out of hand by all the others present as being far too low. Even though they were the ones they answered the questions. They agreed the numbers were good estimates, but thought that 200x4x10 amounted to much more than 8,000. Needless to say there was substantial over production of widgets in the next six months.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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Once again you have missed his point!! what he is saying that in real life it is possible to change peoples views from facts from either other people's point of view or actual evidence. e.g That it might be possible for you to change his view on the government and vice versa through reasonable intelligent conversation and not just a link to a youtube video and retorical abuse because points aren't being listen or heard in the manner the speaker wishes
As barmey as a sack of badgers
Actually, the general point is how people pick a viewpoint and stick to it, even when proven wrong. When you present evidence that contradicts their viewpoint, they try to rationalize it or just disregard the evidence, in order to maintain their position. Kind of like the "birther" thing... First they claim he's foreign-born... He presents a birth certificate, and they just assume that they're still right, so claim that it's a fake. Hospital records are found that prove its validity, and they just assume the records have been faked as well. Anyone who relates first-hand experience would be assumed to be "in on the conspiracy"... Anything to avoid admitting a mistake.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
It's not just a disagreement about the facts that won't convince people. I found early on that people might accept the facts and the logic of an argument but still just dismiss it. As an example, in my youth I had to attend a planning meeting at an engineering company. Part of the meeting was to plan production of a widget that customers would need to install in the next six months. Estimates for the number required went from 50,000 upwards. I just asked How many customers? (ans 200), how many sites/customer? (ans 4), how many widgets/site? (ans 10). So suggested we are looking at about 8,000. This was dismissed out of hand by all the others present as being far too low. Even though they were the ones they answered the questions. They agreed the numbers were good estimates, but thought that 200x4x10 amounted to much more than 8,000. Needless to say there was substantial over production of widgets in the next six months.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
"First rule of government spending. Why build one when you can build two at twice the price?"
-- Contact (1997)Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
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News overload I would say. He is getting older too, but I'm not sure that's at the core of it. We have divergent political points of view too, I suppose. edit I should add that he keeps telling me things are going to get worse, but my contract just got renewed and I got a raise. I find that everywhere I look at retail stores It's busier than a 2 dollar whore on the Vegas strip and yet since Fox News tells him it's getting worse or is going to it must be. People like Glenn Beck sell this story and people lap it up. It reminds me of the year 2000 cults and how their leaders kept pushing back the date and coming up with excuses as to why the aliens or the end of the world hadn't arrived yet. This same thinking can be said of the birthers and the truthers out there. This is turning into a rant of mine. Sorry about that. I just wish we, as a society, could spend our time fixing actual problems in the world instead of debunking pseudo facts by people. end edit
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I'm kinda sad I missed the fireworks. New career started as of this last week and I am trying to get some tasks done. This one reinforces what a lot of us know. Almost sad when you think about it.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
He is getting wise.
You berate those who do not question their information source. You praise those who do not question their information source. Inconsistent, irrational. I praise those who question their information source, regardless of whether it is of a 'liberal' or 'conservative' persuasion. Rational.
Bob Emmett New Eugenicist - The weekly magazine for intelligent parenting. Published by the New World Order Press.
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I think I just heard the phrase "whale poop". That's awesome. :laugh: edit More to the point to what your post was. I'm reading some of the original article they're talking about. It's about 50 pages of very easy to follow thought and sources cited. It can be found at http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bnyhan/nyhan-reifler.pdf[^] end edit
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:48 PM
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)A wild CSS appears! Ian uses Reason. It doesn't affect CSS. CSS uses random nonsense. It's not very effective. Ian uses Haiku. It's super effective! CSS uses Immature Insult. It doesn't affect Ian. Ian uses Real Insult. It's super effective! CSS is unconscious.
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A wild CSS appears! Ian uses Reason. It doesn't affect CSS. CSS uses random nonsense. It's not very effective. Ian uses Haiku. It's super effective! CSS uses Immature Insult. It doesn't affect Ian. Ian uses Real Insult. It's super effective! CSS is unconscious.
Ooh, does he drop any loot? :-D I've been looking for a +5 Vorpal Sword of Idiot-Smashing
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Ooh, does he drop any loot? :-D I've been looking for a +5 Vorpal Sword of Idiot-Smashing
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels):doh: /s NO .... facts make people change thier minds /s :wtf: EDITED to indicate sarcasim ;P
If at first you don't succeed ... post it on The Code Project and Pray.
modified on Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:37 AM
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New research suggests that misinformed people rarely change their minds when presented with the facts -- and often become even more attached to their beliefs. The finding raises questions about a key principle of a strong democracy: that a well-informed electorate is best.
Thanks to Slashdot for pointing this one out... A transcript from an NPR broadcast[^], where they discuss, well, pretty much what we discuss here... Why people are so locked into their own viewpoints (*cough*Pillowpants*cough*) that no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Ooh, does he drop any loot? :-D I've been looking for a +5 Vorpal Sword of Idiot-Smashing
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
:doh: /s NO .... facts make people change thier minds /s :wtf: EDITED to indicate sarcasim ;P
If at first you don't succeed ... post it on The Code Project and Pray.
modified on Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:37 AM
If only that were true. It seems that if a politician changes his/her mind because new facts emerge they are accused of doing a 'U-Turn'. And that's bad thing. :) On the other hand people like CSS simply disregard all facts that contradict their preconceived ideas. :)
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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Stop showing our age!
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
Bah... Nethack isn't THAT old... Err... Damn.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
If only that were true. It seems that if a politician changes his/her mind because new facts emerge they are accused of doing a 'U-Turn'. And that's bad thing. :) On the other hand people like CSS simply disregard all facts that contradict their preconceived ideas. :)
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
tee hee i was being sarcastic .... :laugh:
If at first you don't succeed ... post it on The Code Project and Pray.