What If
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Acutally Java is used in the top level user interface, I know because I work on them. Webkit isn't that fast since it only compiles to byte code not native code. All the 'heavy lifting' to use someone else's term is done in C.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^] "Program as if the technical support department is full of serial killers and they know your home address" - Ray Cassick Jr., RIP
Trollslayer wrote:
Webkit isn't that fast since it only compiles to byte code not native code.
That was long before. Since Safari 3.2 (I think) Webkit compiles to native code. As you can see from the source code here: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/branches/safari-533-branch/JavaScriptCore/assembler[^]
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AspDotNetDev wrote:
Why the hell not?
The first thing I can think of is the nightmare of browser incompatibilities. I can't imagine that browsers and platforms would be 100% interchangeable with the same HTML/JavaScript, even backed by a .NET framework, 3D modeling, etc. Each would end up with a subset of the implementation, or some quirks, or whatever. Basically, the same problem we have today. Marc
What would be the problem with that, if what we are talking about is Windows 8 desktop development? Suppose Microsoft made available a JavaScript library that works on other browsers, but is obviously going to be slower for certain features (e.g., 3D stuff). At least, I don't see how that's any worse than what we have today. You get a good development experience and performance on Windows, and you get interoperability with other platforms (though with reduced performance). That even adds one bonus... you only have to implement it once and you only have to know one language (JavaScript).
Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
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AspDotNetDev wrote:
Right, but if we are talking about making current C# and VB.NET developers comfortable with JavaScript
That was tried with Microsoft ASP.NET Ajax which turned out to be bloated. MS finally moved to jQuery which is easier and simple. Twisting a language like that usually turns out to be bad idea.
One might consider jQuery a "twisting" of the language. All I'm really talking about is making a library (like jQuery) that has some nice generics features and modifying Visual Studio to take full advantage of that library. And what we are talking about is a bit different than what has been done before because it would be aimed primarily at Windows development.
Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
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Acutally Java is used in the top level user interface, I know because I work on them. Webkit isn't that fast since it only compiles to byte code not native code. All the 'heavy lifting' to use someone else's term is done in C.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^] "Program as if the technical support department is full of serial killers and they know your home address" - Ray Cassick Jr., RIP
Trollslayer wrote:
I know because I work on them
Yes there are many different kinds of settop boxes. Lot of them embed the Opera browser and allow developers to use JavaScript.
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I didnt read up to the point where he clarifid hes talking about desktop. :) In that case it hardly will be a JavaScript, but rather a client side C# clone.
kamennik wrote:
I didnt read up to the point where he clarifid hes talking about desktop.
"hes talking about desktop"? Did you mean to post this reply to Pete? (I am the OP, so I am "he" who clarified about desktop development).
kamennik wrote:
In that case it hardly will be a JavaScript, but rather a client side C# clone.
No, it would still be perfectly valid JavaScript syntax. And the libraries would be made available to other browsers. This would give developers the distinct advantage of learning one language (that is higher level than C++) which can be used on many platforms.
Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
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kamennik wrote:
I didnt read up to the point where he clarifid hes talking about desktop.
"hes talking about desktop"? Did you mean to post this reply to Pete? (I am the OP, so I am "he" who clarified about desktop development).
kamennik wrote:
In that case it hardly will be a JavaScript, but rather a client side C# clone.
No, it would still be perfectly valid JavaScript syntax. And the libraries would be made available to other browsers. This would give developers the distinct advantage of learning one language (that is higher level than C++) which can be used on many platforms.
Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
"No, it would still be perfectly valid JavaScript syntax. And the libraries would be made available to other browsers. This would give developers the distinct advantage of learning one language (that is higher level than C++) which can be used on many platforms" You are living in a perfect world, but yeah, it would be nice. I am a bit sceptical that apple and google and mozilla will embrace the MS libraries and will put them into their products.
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"No, it would still be perfectly valid JavaScript syntax. And the libraries would be made available to other browsers. This would give developers the distinct advantage of learning one language (that is higher level than C++) which can be used on many platforms" You are living in a perfect world, but yeah, it would be nice. I am a bit sceptical that apple and google and mozilla will embrace the MS libraries and will put them into their products.
kamennik wrote:
You are living in a perfect world, but yeah, it would be nice.
Well, it is a hypothetical. :)
kamennik wrote:
I am a bit sceptical that apple and google and mozilla will embrace the MS libraries and will put them into their products.
As part of my perfect hypothetical world, you wouldn't have to. You'd just include the "M$.js" file with your application, just like you do with jQuery. Heck, Microsoft could even redistribute it using a CDN (again, as they do with jQuery). That would essentially allow for the .Net Framework to be on all computers, which would be nice.
Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
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What if HTML/JavaScript really were the only way to go from Windows 8 and onward? What if you were given access to the entire .Net Framework from JavaScript? What if the IDE verified JavaScript variable types at compile time? What if Visual Studio supported a pseudo form of generics (e.g.,
var myList = new List.of(String)(constructorParameter);)? What if the framework included full support for 3D in the canvas? What if Visual Studio included a JavaScript library capable of just as complex graphics and just as sophisticated events/binding as is possible with WPF? What if every obstacle that currently exists in JavaScript development that is possible to overcome was done so by the new Visual Studio? Would you be happy to develop desktop applications using HTML/JavaScript then? EDIT: Also, it would be perfect if Microsoft's new fancy JavaScript library was accessed via a jQuery-like variable/function, "M$". ;)Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
Yes. It would feel just as much as an interpreter as C# or Java. A virtual machine, a garbage collector, a runtime and no linker. As long as it has a comparable speed, and a decent IDE, all's peace. I doubt however that the immersive UI is the ideal for a LOB-app; those aren't as much designed around touch, but will probably keep focussing on keyboard users - I'd love to see someone do a CAD-drawing or programming in a UI that's primarily focussing on tablets.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss:
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kamennik wrote:
You are living in a perfect world, but yeah, it would be nice.
Well, it is a hypothetical. :)
kamennik wrote:
I am a bit sceptical that apple and google and mozilla will embrace the MS libraries and will put them into their products.
As part of my perfect hypothetical world, you wouldn't have to. You'd just include the "M$.js" file with your application, just like you do with jQuery. Heck, Microsoft could even redistribute it using a CDN (again, as they do with jQuery). That would essentially allow for the .Net Framework to be on all computers, which would be nice.
Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
"As part of my perfect hypothetical world, you wouldn't have to. You'd just include the "M$.js" file with your application, just like you do with jQuery. Heck, Microsoft could even redistribute it using a CDN (again, as they do with jQuery). That would essentially allow for the .Net Framework to be on all computers, which would be nice." And that's where the lowest common denominator comes in, because some of things cannot be done with the current version of javaScript. Heck even some XML parsers have problems with stuff generated by the .NET libraries. Ever tried to stream a dataset to XML back to Opera? :)
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If a shittuation (proposing a new word: shitty situation = shittuation :thumbsup: ) as you explain arises, I'll probably take up the deserted road. ASSEMBLY PROGRAMMING! With the rumours of the death of C++, I was already looking at it as an option. Sure, I'll have some learning to do, and I'll probably have to move my arse out and search for a job in some obscure company that does chip level programming. But hey, I do what I do for the love of it. And I have absolutely no love for javascript or html. :)
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
Nowadays embedded systems are 90% C\C++ driven, so you are on the safe side. Even the smallest chips in the POS devices or cars have C\C++ compilers and debuggers and some basic IO and file/memory management libraries. No fancy stuff like templates of course but far away from the assembly.
There is only one Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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"As part of my perfect hypothetical world, you wouldn't have to. You'd just include the "M$.js" file with your application, just like you do with jQuery. Heck, Microsoft could even redistribute it using a CDN (again, as they do with jQuery). That would essentially allow for the .Net Framework to be on all computers, which would be nice." And that's where the lowest common denominator comes in, because some of things cannot be done with the current version of javaScript. Heck even some XML parsers have problems with stuff generated by the .NET libraries. Ever tried to stream a dataset to XML back to Opera? :)
Right, you'd get reduced performance on systems that aren't Windows 8. Naturally, the Windows 8 version of the JavaScript file would replace JavaScript code with native code (or would compile it as necessary).
Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
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Trollslayer wrote:
I know because I work on them
Yes there are many different kinds of settop boxes. Lot of them embed the Opera browser and allow developers to use JavaScript.
My point is that is for the top ten percent or so of the software in the unit.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^] "Program as if the technical support department is full of serial killers and they know your home address" - Ray Cassick Jr., RIP
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What would be the problem with that, if what we are talking about is Windows 8 desktop development? Suppose Microsoft made available a JavaScript library that works on other browsers, but is obviously going to be slower for certain features (e.g., 3D stuff). At least, I don't see how that's any worse than what we have today. You get a good development experience and performance on Windows, and you get interoperability with other platforms (though with reduced performance). That even adds one bonus... you only have to implement it once and you only have to know one language (JavaScript).
Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
AspDotNetDev wrote:
you only have to implement it once and you only have to know one language (JavaScript).
Ah, desktop. Got it. Forgot about that part of the question. OK, look at what's out there already, for example, Gt. Is it really platform agnostic? Now, what about databases? I can guarantee you that not everyone is going to use MySql (or whatever it's called now). I've developed a middle tier that works with both Oracle and SQL Server, and OMG, there are some extremely annoying differences. How long has it taken for SQL Server to finally support sequences?!?!?! Oracle has a 32 character limitation on table and field names!?!?!? Etc. So even if you make a language and framework agnostic set, there are serious considerations with interfacing with third party stuff. And lastly, you know how you can tell whenever someone has used Java for an application? It just doesn't look the same as the rest of your Windows apps. And it certainly doesn't look like a Mac app. IMO, there's something to be said for a standard look and feel that users of a particular platform get used to, which you lose with so-called write-once run-everywhere applications. Marc
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It's more of a combination of your hypothetical and the OP's sentiment. It feels a step backwards to basically change VS to work with Java/HTML and call .NET via a library, if I'm interpreting your post correctly. I should clarify what I meant by my "No" now; I would just stop using VS. If MS moved away from .NET towards JS, I would join the exodus from VS. I will clarify, when I read this: Would you be happy to develop desktop applications using HTML/JavaScript then? I assumed you meant using VS.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
modified on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 9:52 AM
I know you are trying to augment your opinion about the HTML + JavaScript (this Harley Davidson and Malboro Man couple of coding), but you can't use exodus when you are referring only to yourself. Exodus means a mass departure. If you take me with you (as I share your feelings) then maybe we can call it exodus. :D
giuchici
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What if HTML/JavaScript really were the only way to go from Windows 8 and onward? What if you were given access to the entire .Net Framework from JavaScript? What if the IDE verified JavaScript variable types at compile time? What if Visual Studio supported a pseudo form of generics (e.g.,
var myList = new List.of(String)(constructorParameter);)? What if the framework included full support for 3D in the canvas? What if Visual Studio included a JavaScript library capable of just as complex graphics and just as sophisticated events/binding as is possible with WPF? What if every obstacle that currently exists in JavaScript development that is possible to overcome was done so by the new Visual Studio? Would you be happy to develop desktop applications using HTML/JavaScript then? EDIT: Also, it would be perfect if Microsoft's new fancy JavaScript library was accessed via a jQuery-like variable/function, "M$". ;)Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
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Gerbil got it good: http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=3925537#xx3925537xx[^] Generally I don't feel like what you described is a step in the right direction.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Javascript isn't designed for heavy lifting
Someone should really break this news to the guys who designed the Indian Railways website.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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What if HTML/JavaScript really were the only way to go from Windows 8 and onward? What if you were given access to the entire .Net Framework from JavaScript? What if the IDE verified JavaScript variable types at compile time? What if Visual Studio supported a pseudo form of generics (e.g.,
var myList = new List.of(String)(constructorParameter);)? What if the framework included full support for 3D in the canvas? What if Visual Studio included a JavaScript library capable of just as complex graphics and just as sophisticated events/binding as is possible with WPF? What if every obstacle that currently exists in JavaScript development that is possible to overcome was done so by the new Visual Studio? Would you be happy to develop desktop applications using HTML/JavaScript then? EDIT: Also, it would be perfect if Microsoft's new fancy JavaScript library was accessed via a jQuery-like variable/function, "M$". ;)Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
No. I would stick with Windows 7, and prepare for a transfer to Linux. And WTF would happen to the computer game industry? Noo... If they kill the ordinary shell in Windows 8, I'm just going to run Ubuntu. Or Mint. And program for said OSes only.
Don't forget to rate my post if it helped! ;) "He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends." "His mother should have thrown him away, and kept the stork." "There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure." "He loves nature, in spite of what it did to him."
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It's more of a combination of your hypothetical and the OP's sentiment. It feels a step backwards to basically change VS to work with Java/HTML and call .NET via a library, if I'm interpreting your post correctly. I should clarify what I meant by my "No" now; I would just stop using VS. If MS moved away from .NET towards JS, I would join the exodus from VS. I will clarify, when I read this: Would you be happy to develop desktop applications using HTML/JavaScript then? I assumed you meant using VS.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
modified on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 9:52 AM
wizardzz wrote:
If MS moved away from .NET towards Java, I would exodus from MS.
The question was about JavsScript, not Java. They already tried Java once before, and we all know how that turned out!
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What if HTML/JavaScript really were the only way to go from Windows 8 and onward? What if you were given access to the entire .Net Framework from JavaScript? What if the IDE verified JavaScript variable types at compile time? What if Visual Studio supported a pseudo form of generics (e.g.,
var myList = new List.of(String)(constructorParameter);)? What if the framework included full support for 3D in the canvas? What if Visual Studio included a JavaScript library capable of just as complex graphics and just as sophisticated events/binding as is possible with WPF? What if every obstacle that currently exists in JavaScript development that is possible to overcome was done so by the new Visual Studio? Would you be happy to develop desktop applications using HTML/JavaScript then? EDIT: Also, it would be perfect if Microsoft's new fancy JavaScript library was accessed via a jQuery-like variable/function, "M$". ;)Help a brotha out and vote Managing Your JavaScript Library in ASP.NET as the best ASP.NET article of May 2011.
My initial reaction would be "eum...no" A more reasoned response would be "heeeell no!" And then I'ld realise that ex-.net devs would be moving to other languages on mass, as it seems nobody here wants to do "native" html/js. Upon seeing that, I'ld probably suck it up and become an expert in it and waaay overcharge hour rates. :P But all this is pretty void of meaning and a pointless exercise. For the simple reason that .NET and xaml based technology ain't going anywhere. Just because html5 support is added to win8 doesn't mean support will be removed for other languages. That's ridiculous. People need to ask themselves WHY the win8 presentation was done and why it was done at that particular time (just days before the apple event). It's painfully obvious: msft wanted some buzz. And you can't get buzz without the addition of a few buzzwords like "standards, cloud, html5, tablet, ARM" You know... all the (grossly overhyped) things the "trendy" people find important these days. I don't care in the slightest. .NET and XAML ain't going anywhere and will obviously be first class citizens in win8's "immersive app" concept. The Jupiter project is even said to add a XAML layer to C++... What more do you need to know about MSFT's stance on XAML?