As we move inexorably towards the 10th anniversary
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My 5. I am totally with you on that point. I think that "morbid fascination and national hand-wringing" for those who gave their lives for the nation ( intentionally or not ) is very present in the US culture. I think most of us here in Europe would agree to find this slightly overdone, to say the least. (Don't get me wrong, I mean no offense here, just picking up something I noticed)
I think the cultural difference between europe and america makes americans, to us, seem over-dramatic in general. And perhaps, for us Brits, there is an element of the fact that terrorists have been blowing bits of our countries up for decades now so that it feels a little bit more 'everyday' than it does for the americans
Pedis ex oris
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Fat__Eric wrote:
Dalek Dave wrote:
Firstly, Very few people today could say what the 5th of November was all
about.Burning Catholics isnt it? :)
Maxwell falling off his boat. A happy day indeed.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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The only enemy is the government. To quote Madame Whiteadder "Cold is God's way of telling us to burn more Catholics"
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
But I like Catholics. :sigh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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But I like Catholics. :sigh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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WTF is poppy day? The term is Armistice Day, and whilst it is a time for remembering all those who have fallen, it was first created for WW1. My point is that we don't spend the day reciting the names of everyone who died in the war, we don't show teary-eyed widows and orphans, we don't have the suitably somber music overlaying the serious looking news reporter as black and white 'arty' images are presented to us of them as died. There is a time to move on, I think the 10th anniversary is it.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
WTF is poppy day?
What? You, UK citizen, and ex army, and you dont know what poppy day is? Lets see what google says:http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=%22poppy+day%22&pbx=1&oq=%22poppy+day%22&aq=f&aqi=g5&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1700l3510l0l3697l11l9l0l0l0l0l546l2043l0.1.1.3.0.1l6l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=b52565719a354932&biw=1272&bih=631[^] Oh look, there it is, as broad as daylight. Trying to hide your fallacy with feined ignorance? Tut tu, won't work here Dave. :) Oh, and yes, probably 10 years after WW1 widows were crying, and names were read out. I am sure in 100 years sept 11th will be a small ceremony. Give it time Dave, give it time. The wound is stil raw, the flesh not yet closed over.
============================== Nothing to say.
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But I like Catholics. :sigh:
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
I have no problem with them, it was the politcal situation 400 years ago over which I have no control. And Blackadder is very funny.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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My 5. I am totally with you on that point. I think that "morbid fascination and national hand-wringing" for those who gave their lives for the nation ( intentionally or not ) is very present in the US culture. I think most of us here in Europe would agree to find this slightly overdone, to say the least. (Don't get me wrong, I mean no offense here, just picking up something I noticed)
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I agree. It wasn't some massive moment of history like a world war where you can make the argument that we need to remember so we don't do it again (though I think we should can 'Remembrance' once there aren't actually people around who can remember WW1, as well) – it was a terrorist attack, notable only by the scale and the luck involved (I don't believe for a moment they knew the towers would collapse like that). Having a huge global memorial every year for 3000 Americans (mostly) and nothing for the many, many more civilians killed by our own countries in Afghanistan and Iraq gives entirely the wrong impression, too. But it's cheap political capital for those at the top and reminding people of it constantly gives them an excuse to push back against civil rights in the name of 'counter-terrorism', so I guess we will have to face another 10 years of anniversaries.
BobJanova wrote:
(I don't believe for a moment they knew the towers would collapse like that).
No one thought they would collapse so readilly. I was shocked (ex structural engineer in steel buildings). Lots of planes have hit lots of buildings, never has one come aprt so easilly. When I read an inquest into the design I was not surprised though, it was shoddillly built.
============================== Nothing to say.
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I have no problem with them, it was the politcal situation 400 years ago over which I have no control. And Blackadder is very funny.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
The Ickles had temporary guilt about bonfire night when I explained it was remembering the killing of a Catholic who wanted to kill the King. But with hotdogs and sparkers, they soon got over any moral objections. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Although you couldn't eat a whole one.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
I dunno, Mrs Wife is pretty tasty...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I have no problem with them, it was the politcal situation 400 years ago over which I have no control. And Blackadder is very funny.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
I have no problem with them
Given some of your comments in the Soapbox and your stated militant atheism, I seriously doubt that statement is accurate. :rolleyes:
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Rage wrote:
I think most of us here in Europe would agree to find this slightly overdone, to say the least.
Except for scousers, who have it even worse.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
Except for scousers, who have it even worse.
It's only the red half.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Dalek Dave wrote:
I have no problem with them
Given some of your comments in the Soapbox and your stated militant atheism, I seriously doubt that statement is accurate. :rolleyes:
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
I have many catholic friends, I can see past the religion to see the man, it is religion in general that I dislike. They never try to influence me religiously.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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I have many catholic friends, I can see past the religion to see the man, it is religion in general that I dislike. They never try to influence me religiously.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Fair enough. So you're opposed to the organisation of religion as opposed to the individuality of religion then.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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Fair enough. So you're opposed to the organisation of religion as opposed to the individuality of religion then.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
this is pretty much my view. Most religious people i have come across are genuinely likable, likewise the moral code that most religions encourage is commendable. Its the organisations that tend to deviate from their own moral codes and generally care more for seeking power and influence than for the teachings of their creed. Fairly recently in the UK a decision was made in the church of england that several high up bishops didn't like, so they defected to catholicism. Either: 1. The 2 branches of christianty are so similar that there is negligible difference in the teachings, actions, etc. In which case, why have both? 2. There is significant difference in the teachings of the 2 branches that they are both justified in existing. In which case, switching their beliefs because of a political decision within the church of england suggests that their beliefs weren't that strong and, in fact, the driving force of their membership within the religious organization was something else such as power, wealth, politics, etc
Pedis ex oris
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this is pretty much my view. Most religious people i have come across are genuinely likable, likewise the moral code that most religions encourage is commendable. Its the organisations that tend to deviate from their own moral codes and generally care more for seeking power and influence than for the teachings of their creed. Fairly recently in the UK a decision was made in the church of england that several high up bishops didn't like, so they defected to catholicism. Either: 1. The 2 branches of christianty are so similar that there is negligible difference in the teachings, actions, etc. In which case, why have both? 2. There is significant difference in the teachings of the 2 branches that they are both justified in existing. In which case, switching their beliefs because of a political decision within the church of england suggests that their beliefs weren't that strong and, in fact, the driving force of their membership within the religious organization was something else such as power, wealth, politics, etc
Pedis ex oris
GParkings wrote:
1. The 2 branches of christianty are so similar that there is negligible difference in the teachings, actions, etc. In which case, why have both?
Both are very similar. The deviation was a purely political decision when king and pope had a falling out (this is a simplification of the politics of the time, but for convenience it will do).
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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I'd like to take this opportunity to remember Gavin MacMahon who was killed in the Twin Towers on 9/11. He was on the 99th floor when the plane hit and had only recently moved to America. He was so excited to be relocated there. It was his big adventure. I'd also like to remember his family, especially his dad Terry who had flown over to help him set up his apartment. Please, at this time, remember not only the people who lost their lives, but all those who were touched by the events of the day. The workers in the immediate vicinity - they will never forget the fear and horror. The emergency services. The families and friends. And please - no votes on this thread. This is a memorial, however feeble, to one of the nicest lads ever to walk the planet. Gav, you daft nowt, you're missed.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Now there is a hijacked thread.
Charlie Gilley You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house. "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Sad as it undoubtedly was, I feel that once this 10th anniversary is done with, the whole thing should be left to fall into the arms of history. The morbid fascination and national hand-wringing is capitalised upon by media outlets, each vying to be more sombre and socially aware than the next. We do not mourn for the millions who died in WW2 in such a way, and I feel that the 10th year since it happened should be sufficient time for a nation to reflect on the matter, then move on. One cannot mourn forever, it is unhealthy. Let the dead rest, let the living move on.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
The morbid fascination and national hand-wringing is capitalised upon by media outlets
And what happens every year around the time Diana got parked in a pole! I wonder what it would be like to just have the facts reported without the emotional overload.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Now there is a hijacked thread.
Charlie Gilley You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house. "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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GParkings wrote:
1. The 2 branches of christianty are so similar that there is negligible difference in the teachings, actions, etc. In which case, why have both?
Both are very similar. The deviation was a purely political decision when king and pope had a falling out (this is a simplification of the politics of the time, but for convenience it will do).
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
im (somewhat) familiar with the events that lead up tot he formation of the english church, what i was getting at is: for the continued existence of 2 sepperate branches to be justified there needs to be significant difference between the two and there are, i believe, a number of differences with regards to things like: - the authority of the pope coming from god - confession - possession of wealth - proliferation of giant wooden thermometers - love of tea thus, if you are a devout bishop in CofE, no political/managerial decision within that organization should magically change your belief with regards to the authority of the pope (for example).If, therefore, bishops defect from CofE over a managerial decision they either did not fully believe what they were preaching in the CofE or will not believe what they are preaching in the catholic church
Pedis ex oris