Of course he won't.
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All religions are offensive. Be it organised paedophilia in the catholic church, the high regard muslims have of a paedophile prophet or the genital mutilation of children in judaism. They are all basically intolerant of women, homosexuals, those of other faiths or no faith. They are divisive and insular, often brainwashing (or mentally abusing to give it the correct term) children into their parochial belief systems with threats of terrible vengeance should the individual decide to leave. They hate change in a changing world, and none like being criticised. The sooner religion is consigned to the scrap bin of history the better, and those that are afflicted should be given serious psychiatric help.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
I can only speak of the catholic church, but in this case you are obviously mistaking the way the Head in Vatican is preaching, and how the Faith is lived at the bottom of the "pyramid". The message is not exactly the same. I am involved in the church activities, and I don't think I am intolerant towards women, homosexuals, or other faiths. I haven't seen or been victim of organised paedophilia so far. The brainwash you are talking about is past, at least in my area: children are free to think what they want, and believe me or not, you can't force a child to go the church or to believe in God ( which in both cases would be pure nonsense ). I agree that religion has been largely misused in the past, and that some can see it as nonsense. The quintessence of religion is that it cannot be rationally explained, so if you don't believe, you don't believe, that was it. Religions are not offensive. What some people have done or are doing in the name of religion is offensive. Alike, what some other people have done or are doing in the name of religion is admirable.
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Now, bringing this back on topic to personal responsibility.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
I do not need the bronze age scribblings of middle-eastern peasants to enforce my personal morality. I abide by the laws of man, not the laws of the sky-pixies and treat people well until they no longer deserve that respect.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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The primate of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Brady, has said he isn't going to resign over revelations he had details of abuse victims, and didn't pass them on to the police. Clickety[^] Why should he resign? After all, it's not as though he was guilty of not forwarding this information; of keeping quiet about it and being complicit in moving priests between parishes to keep them ahead of the allegations. I haven't started this off with the intention of knocking the catholic church. This is about personal responsibility - regardless of his feelings regarding the chain of command inside the church, he had a moral and legal duty to report the crimes. Even when he was a note taker, he was as responsible for reporting the acts as the person he reported to.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
-
The Primate of All Ireland, Cardinal Brady wrote:
"I had absolutely no authority over Brendan Smyth. Even my Bishop had limited authority over him. The only people who had authority within the Church to stop Brendan Smyth from having contact with children were his Abbot in the Monastery in Kilnacrott and his Religious Superiors in the Norbertine Order."
Senior Vatican Prosecutor Monsignor Charles Scicluna wrote:
My first point is that Fr Brady was a note taker in 1975, he did what he should have done. He forwarded all the information to the people that had the power to act," he said.
I can only assume that the Irish police are the comedy sort, like the Keystone Kops or something as only the Catholic Church has the authority to act, if these statements are to be beleived. Christ, didn't they even consider going to the police?
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]No, remember you never talk about fight club! Telling the police that Father Murphy was sodomising altar boys would get you in serious trouble with the church! So much better if he was just moved on to another parish for some fresh meat.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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I can only speak of the catholic church, but in this case you are obviously mistaking the way the Head in Vatican is preaching, and how the Faith is lived at the bottom of the "pyramid". The message is not exactly the same. I am involved in the church activities, and I don't think I am intolerant towards women, homosexuals, or other faiths. I haven't seen or been victim of organised paedophilia so far. The brainwash you are talking about is past, at least in my area: children are free to think what they want, and believe me or not, you can't force a child to go the church or to believe in God ( which in both cases would be pure nonsense ). I agree that religion has been largely misused in the past, and that some can see it as nonsense. The quintessence of religion is that it cannot be rationally explained, so if you don't believe, you don't believe, that was it. Religions are not offensive. What some people have done or are doing in the name of religion is offensive. Alike, what some other people have done or are doing in the name of religion is admirable.
Great comment. I understand where DD is coming from, but I disagree with him about throwing religion away because of how it has been abused. As you point out, there are also good things that come about as a result of practicising one's religious beliefs. And we should not be throwing those away. :)
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
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All religions are offensive. Be it organised paedophilia in the catholic church, the high regard muslims have of a paedophile prophet or the genital mutilation of children in judaism. They are all basically intolerant of women, homosexuals, those of other faiths or no faith. They are divisive and insular, often brainwashing (or mentally abusing to give it the correct term) children into their parochial belief systems with threats of terrible vengeance should the individual decide to leave. They hate change in a changing world, and none like being criticised. The sooner religion is consigned to the scrap bin of history the better, and those that are afflicted should be given serious psychiatric help.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
I totally agree, let's remove all the tools pedophiles use to get hold of children. Schools, churches, social clubs, the internet, ...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I can only speak of the catholic church, but in this case you are obviously mistaking the way the Head in Vatican is preaching, and how the Faith is lived at the bottom of the "pyramid". The message is not exactly the same. I am involved in the church activities, and I don't think I am intolerant towards women, homosexuals, or other faiths. I haven't seen or been victim of organised paedophilia so far. The brainwash you are talking about is past, at least in my area: children are free to think what they want, and believe me or not, you can't force a child to go the church or to believe in God ( which in both cases would be pure nonsense ). I agree that religion has been largely misused in the past, and that some can see it as nonsense. The quintessence of religion is that it cannot be rationally explained, so if you don't believe, you don't believe, that was it. Religions are not offensive. What some people have done or are doing in the name of religion is offensive. Alike, what some other people have done or are doing in the name of religion is admirable.
Please try to see things from our perspective: we do not think that most Catholics are child molesters, or systematically cover it up. What we do see is about a billion mostly good people actively supporting an organisation that does do those things, pretending that it doesn't happen or pretending that it isn't as serious as it is, making excuses, and failing to pressure the organisation to fix itself and stop ruining people's lives. You may not be responsible for it having happened, but you're certainly responsible in some small part for it continuing to happen.
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I totally agree, let's remove all the tools pedophiles use to get hold of children. Schools, churches, social clubs, the internet, ...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
let's remove all the tools of pedophiles
ftfy
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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I totally agree, let's remove all the tools pedophiles use to get hold of children. Schools, churches, social clubs, the internet, ...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
let's remove all the tools pedophiles use to get hold of children. Schools, churches, social clubs, the internet, ...
.. sweets, puppies, noncing sticks.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
let's remove all the tools pedophiles use to get hold of children. Schools, churches, social clubs, the internet, ...
.. sweets, puppies, noncing sticks.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Dog Collars.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
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Please try to see things from our perspective: we do not think that most Catholics are child molesters, or systematically cover it up. What we do see is about a billion mostly good people actively supporting an organisation that does do those things, pretending that it doesn't happen or pretending that it isn't as serious as it is, making excuses, and failing to pressure the organisation to fix itself and stop ruining people's lives. You may not be responsible for it having happened, but you're certainly responsible in some small part for it continuing to happen.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
but you're certainly responsible in some small part for it continuing to happen.
Please elucidate. I'm a bit lost as to your logic here. Do you not think he would have reported it if he knew it happened? Or do you think they should be reporting all priests?:confused:
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
let's remove all the tools of pedophiles
ftfy
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live
That's the best suggestion I've read yet. Have a 5, and a rusty pair of shears to start dispensing street justice.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
but you're certainly responsible in some small part for it continuing to happen.
Please elucidate. I'm a bit lost as to your logic here. Do you not think he would have reported it if he knew it happened? Or do you think they should be reporting all priests?:confused:
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Please elucidate. I'm a bit lost as to your logic here. Do you not think he would have reported it if he knew it happened? Or do you think they should be reporting all priests?
I'm saying he should stop giving his money, time, and support to an organisation that refuses to help the powerless and deliberately moves the offenders to new pools of victims. The Church needs to know that it is unacceptable. As it stands, every time a new scandal appears people still don't give a damn.
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The primate of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Brady, has said he isn't going to resign over revelations he had details of abuse victims, and didn't pass them on to the police. Clickety[^] Why should he resign? After all, it's not as though he was guilty of not forwarding this information; of keeping quiet about it and being complicit in moving priests between parishes to keep them ahead of the allegations. I haven't started this off with the intention of knocking the catholic church. This is about personal responsibility - regardless of his feelings regarding the chain of command inside the church, he had a moral and legal duty to report the crimes. Even when he was a note taker, he was as responsible for reporting the acts as the person he reported to.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
A while back at a Father's Retreat we were talking with our priest about the issue of abuse in the church and how it has acted. He felt there was a side of the story that was not being communicated. In most cases, the main evidence [rather than allegation or rumour] came from the priests themselves through confession. At this point there was an argument that as it was confession it should not be taken any further. To my knowledge, this way of thinking is gone. If a priest hears a crime through confession they may not reveal it; that is part of Canon Law. What they can, and do, do is to encourage the person to confess outside of the sanctity of the seal. That then allows them to openly work and report it. If there is any knowledge outside of confession that a crime has been committed, the current thinking is that the Church should not act upon it on there own, but must report it and request permission to act in place of the police / prosecutors.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Please try to see things from our perspective: we do not think that most Catholics are child molesters, or systematically cover it up. What we do see is about a billion mostly good people actively supporting an organisation that does do those things, pretending that it doesn't happen or pretending that it isn't as serious as it is, making excuses, and failing to pressure the organisation to fix itself and stop ruining people's lives. You may not be responsible for it having happened, but you're certainly responsible in some small part for it continuing to happen.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
a billion mostly good people actively supporting an organisation
We are not "actively" supporting this organization, precisely. We believe in God and in the same message, and want to express our faith the same way. That's the community. To support this community, it happens that there is an historical structured organization. This does not mean that all believers have to subscribe to everything these "self-elected representatives" say ( and believe me that there is enough protesting in our meetings ). There are enough subjects about which we ( I speak in the name of the people I am meeting with) don't agree with the current official positions of the Catholic Church ( homosexuality, abortion, marriage of the priest, contraception), but that is not a reason to say the religion we are believing in is nonsense. To be complete, since there are less and less priests, the Catholic Church will be soon run by laymen (not sure about my translation from the French), so the need of changes in the organization will be even more present; our hope is that we can reform that deeply. For instance, where I live, as everywhere else in France actually, the responsibilities for the Church "activities" is now equally done by a priest and a layman (or a "laywoman", since most of these new roles happen to be held by women); they both are in charge of all organizational aspects. To sum it up: the normal people believe in the message and in the ritual acts, but not necessarily in the hierarchical representation. The assimilation you made would in some extent be the same as to say that you back up all the positions of the Australian government because you are Australian.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Please elucidate. I'm a bit lost as to your logic here. Do you not think he would have reported it if he knew it happened? Or do you think they should be reporting all priests?
I'm saying he should stop giving his money, time, and support to an organisation that refuses to help the powerless and deliberately moves the offenders to new pools of victims. The Church needs to know that it is unacceptable. As it stands, every time a new scandal appears people still don't give a damn.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
As it stands, every time a new scandal appears people still don't give a damn.
I think that's a touch naive and very offensive to Catholics. I don't know a single Catholic who doesn't care - yes the church needs to know that such behaviour is unacceptable, but asking people to give up on their faith is not the way to achieve change. Taking your argument and extending it, people should stop supporting ALL organisations because some individuals in it break the law and the people in charge turn a blind eye to it. One small point. I don't think that he's giving his time to the organisation of the church. Most Catholic's give their time to the religion, not the organisation, and give their time to helping others, again not the organisation.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
As it stands, every time a new scandal appears people still don't give a damn.
I think that's a touch naive and very offensive to Catholics. I don't know a single Catholic who doesn't care - yes the church needs to know that such behaviour is unacceptable, but asking people to give up on their faith is not the way to achieve change. Taking your argument and extending it, people should stop supporting ALL organisations because some individuals in it break the law and the people in charge turn a blind eye to it. One small point. I don't think that he's giving his time to the organisation of the church. Most Catholic's give their time to the religion, not the organisation, and give their time to helping others, again not the organisation.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
and very offensive to Catholics.
That's pretty much my experience when talking openly about subjects they're uncomfortable dealing with.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I don't know a single Catholic who doesn't care
This caring probably doesn't manifest in action, though. I'm guessing they're no less generous in their tithing.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
but asking people to give up on their faith is not the way to achieve change.
I'm not asking them to do it. I'm merely criticising them for not doing it.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Taking your argument and extending it, people should stop supporting ALL organisations because some individuals in it break the law and the people in charge turn a blind eye to it.
It can be a grey area, sure, but the Catholic Church has far surpassed the grey area.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I don't think that he's giving his time to the organisation of the church. Most Catholic's give their time to the religion, not the organisation, and give their time to helping others, again not the organisation.
If he's not giving a single cent or a nanosecond to the Church, then that's fine with me.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
and very offensive to Catholics.
That's pretty much my experience when talking openly about subjects they're uncomfortable dealing with.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I don't know a single Catholic who doesn't care
This caring probably doesn't manifest in action, though. I'm guessing they're no less generous in their tithing.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
but asking people to give up on their faith is not the way to achieve change.
I'm not asking them to do it. I'm merely criticising them for not doing it.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Taking your argument and extending it, people should stop supporting ALL organisations because some individuals in it break the law and the people in charge turn a blind eye to it.
It can be a grey area, sure, but the Catholic Church has far surpassed the grey area.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I don't think that he's giving his time to the organisation of the church. Most Catholic's give their time to the religion, not the organisation, and give their time to helping others, again not the organisation.
If he's not giving a single cent or a nanosecond to the Church, then that's fine with me.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
and very offensive to Catholics.
That's pretty much my experience when talking openly about subjects they're uncomfortable dealing with.
I don't think this is the case. Catholics aren't comfortable with the abuse scandal, and they are more than willing to talk openly about it, but your argument was that they are condoning this behaviour - that is the offensive part.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
I'm guessing they're no less generous in their tithing
And given that this tithing helps to pay for such things as orphanages in places like Peru, is it such a bad thing that they give their money? What do you do to support these causes? In many cases, the churches are the only organisations that operate in the poorer areas, so should people stop caring about these locations?
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
-
A while back at a Father's Retreat we were talking with our priest about the issue of abuse in the church and how it has acted. He felt there was a side of the story that was not being communicated. In most cases, the main evidence [rather than allegation or rumour] came from the priests themselves through confession. At this point there was an argument that as it was confession it should not be taken any further. To my knowledge, this way of thinking is gone. If a priest hears a crime through confession they may not reveal it; that is part of Canon Law. What they can, and do, do is to encourage the person to confess outside of the sanctity of the seal. That then allows them to openly work and report it. If there is any knowledge outside of confession that a crime has been committed, the current thinking is that the Church should not act upon it on there own, but must report it and request permission to act in place of the police / prosecutors.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
What they can, and do, do is to encourage the person to confess outside of the sanctity of the seal.
Agreed, NO ONE is above the law and all should be treated equally and fairly. Am I stupid or what?, this will never happen.
VS2010/Atmel Studio 6.0 ToDo Manager Extension
Version 3.0 now available. There is no place like 127.0.0.1 -
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
and very offensive to Catholics.
That's pretty much my experience when talking openly about subjects they're uncomfortable dealing with.
I don't think this is the case. Catholics aren't comfortable with the abuse scandal, and they are more than willing to talk openly about it, but your argument was that they are condoning this behaviour - that is the offensive part.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
I'm guessing they're no less generous in their tithing
And given that this tithing helps to pay for such things as orphanages in places like Peru, is it such a bad thing that they give their money? What do you do to support these causes? In many cases, the churches are the only organisations that operate in the poorer areas, so should people stop caring about these locations?
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Catholics aren't comfortable with the abuse scandal
Of course they are.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
and they are more than willing to talk openly about it
Yeah, I've heard a lot of 'open talking' about how it isn't really abuse once the child above a certain age, how it's just a smear manufactured by Liberals and atheists, how they're not 'real' Catholics, etc.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
but your argument was that they are condoning this behaviour - that is the offensive part.
In this whole affair, if that's what they find offensive then I think they need to sort out their priorities. They should be offended by what's being done in their names.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
What do you do to support these causes?
I'm guessing the subtext of this question is that you think I'm not good enough to criticise the Church. I have virtually nothing to give. I've donated a modest amount to a charity to provide palliative care to terminally ill children, but that's it. I've done nothing for the people of Peru.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
In many cases, the churches are the only organisations that operate in the poorer areas, so should people stop caring about these locations?
There are frequently secular organisations willing to do the same, if they were given the chance.
