How Long Will Programmers Be So Well-Paid?
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Nish Sivakumar wrote:
hard to hire a good developer
What makes a developer a good developer?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
F*ck no
:thumbsup: Well said :-D
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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harold aptroot wrote:
Well then why is it impossible to even get an interview for one of the better jobs?
Or am I just that bad at writing my CV?I would say it's because most candidates rate themselves higher than what a 3rd person would. Including myself.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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I suppose so. But IMO that doesn't really explain why I can only get jobs that offer minimum-"unfortunately we're not allowed to employ you with ball and chain"-wage. Someone who does assembly optimizations for VLC in their free time should rate above that, even if just a little.
How about writing a couple of articles here on CP? It certainly wouldn't hurt, and it might help you to get noticed.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
I can't speak for other places but where I come from, programming isn't a popular profession and engineering degrees aren't easy to come by, (I'm from Norway). There are some universities which offer application development oriented degrees, but mostly its the title of engineer that get you the good salaries. But getting a Bachelors degree in computer engineering isn't just hard, it's only cream of the crop that get admitted in the first place. So though you have kids in their late teens dreaming of making their own software or games, they can't get in to the university programs due to grade requirements or not at a sufficient subject tier in math and physics. The result is that you have people with the drive and talent, but without any way to get into the job they want, they settle for something else. So if you ever come across someone with an IT Civil Engineering degree, (master's degree in engineering), from Norway, he or she will be the best of the best; but it leaves little opertunety for someone who'll settle for being a pure programmer. So I think that having programming as a vocation/profession track in high school, might be the solution, (this might not translate the way I mean it but it'll have to do), so that it's a professional skill easier to acquire. (engineering degrees need not be easier to get). that's my two cents worth! -frank
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable. There will be bonuses for those few who are equally proficient in both the hardware and software realms, and special perks for that tiny minority who still understand math.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Well then why is it impossible to even get an interview for one of the better jobs? Or am I just that bad at writing my CV?
Hi Harold, It seems to me that the question that needs to be asked is: "how do those that do get an interview for one of the better jobs" at specific companies achieve that ? I'd try to learn everything I could about each specific company I was planning to apply to: about who they hire; what the steps in the hiring process are (or, if they out-source pre-hire screening: who does that); what is the form of initial contact from a job applicant they expect: cover letter including a link to resume; resume + cv ... etc. In most cases I would write a very brief, specific, cover letter based on everything I had learned about the company, and "tailored to" the position I was applying for. Unless, of course, I knew that "cover letters" were not wanted by the specific company. Such a cover letter would express, in two, or, three, short paragraphs: 1. Why my experience qualifies me to be a good potential employee, for this particular project or task. 2. Why I wanted to work for this company, on this particular project or task. 3. That I am available, and ready/eager, to go to work for this company, on this particular project or task. If you have doubts about the style, and/or relevance, of your CV, or Resume, have you considered getting professional editorial assistance ? best, Bill
~ Confused by Windows 8 ? This may help: [^] !
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Hi Nish, I have lived in Chiang Mai over eleven years (in two installments, separated by five years back in the U.S.). The merit of that TechCrunch article is really "undermined" for me by the author's ridiculous statements about Chiang Mai, based on a visit of a few days: "... I’ve spend the last couple of days chilling out in Chiang Mai, northern Thailand, a city where you could live like royalty and save money while making merely half of Google’s average developer salary." The author is correct about the possible cost-of-living you can have here, depending on your relative frugality of life-style, being a fraction of what the cost of living (in a "non-poverty" lifestyle) in any great American, or European, city, or Singapore, or Hong Kong, or Taipei, etc., would be. Where the author is absolutely wrong is in his later assumption that cost-of-living is the primary driving factor in expat migration to Chiang Mai(there are many other factors, and the author shows no evidence he has any statistical basis for his statements about expat demography): "... has tempted thousands of expats who now live here" The author then goes on to form a hypothesis from his short stay in Chiang Mai: "... And their presence [he's speaking of expats in Chiang Mai] has sparked a possible explanation for this apparent paradox." The "paradox" which the author claims is a causal factor of what he perceives as a "skewed" distribution of skilled programmers, not just in Thailand, but in other countries: is absurd; a violation of at least two of the logical principles of inference. Another absurdity in the article is where the author mentions "Chiang Mai" along with "Bangalore," as if there were a "parallel:" "Instead you’ll advance to the point at which you’re reasonably happy with your paycheck, which studies indicate is about $70,000/year in America. (But much less in Chiang Mai or Bangalore.)" Chiang Mai, and Thailand, is an "absolute zero" in software development compared to India: to Bangalore; or Hyderabad; or Mumbai. There are very few expat programmers here. Only two companies of small size that I know of in Chiang Mai, where the owners are expats, and employees, in general, Thai. There may be out-sourcing "sweatshops" here in Thailand I don't know of, where crap-work is being performed: but, since average Thai mastery of English is so poor, compared to India, you can be sure there is no out-sourcing on-line voice-chat support industry here that can be compared to India, or other
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Hi Harold, It seems to me that the question that needs to be asked is: "how do those that do get an interview for one of the better jobs" at specific companies achieve that ? I'd try to learn everything I could about each specific company I was planning to apply to: about who they hire; what the steps in the hiring process are (or, if they out-source pre-hire screening: who does that); what is the form of initial contact from a job applicant they expect: cover letter including a link to resume; resume + cv ... etc. In most cases I would write a very brief, specific, cover letter based on everything I had learned about the company, and "tailored to" the position I was applying for. Unless, of course, I knew that "cover letters" were not wanted by the specific company. Such a cover letter would express, in two, or, three, short paragraphs: 1. Why my experience qualifies me to be a good potential employee, for this particular project or task. 2. Why I wanted to work for this company, on this particular project or task. 3. That I am available, and ready/eager, to go to work for this company, on this particular project or task. If you have doubts about the style, and/or relevance, of your CV, or Resume, have you considered getting professional editorial assistance ? best, Bill
~ Confused by Windows 8 ? This may help: [^] !
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How about writing a couple of articles here on CP? It certainly wouldn't hurt, and it might help you to get noticed.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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I'm bad at writing non-code. See that article I have now? (it actually has bad code, too) But maybe I'll try again anyway.
harold aptroot wrote:
maybe I'll try again anyway
I hope so :-D Those who are able to get well paid often do so because they have honed their communication skills - and having said that, I hope you realize that getting 3,137 for your first article is pretty good.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable. There will be bonuses for those few who are equally proficient in both the hardware and software realms, and special perks for that tiny minority who still understand math.
Will Rogers never met me.
Good points - but it's often hard to initially figure out which one you've got on your hands during an interview - that may take several months.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Hi Nish, I have lived in Chiang Mai over eleven years (in two installments, separated by five years back in the U.S.). The merit of that TechCrunch article is really "undermined" for me by the author's ridiculous statements about Chiang Mai, based on a visit of a few days: "... I’ve spend the last couple of days chilling out in Chiang Mai, northern Thailand, a city where you could live like royalty and save money while making merely half of Google’s average developer salary." The author is correct about the possible cost-of-living you can have here, depending on your relative frugality of life-style, being a fraction of what the cost of living (in a "non-poverty" lifestyle) in any great American, or European, city, or Singapore, or Hong Kong, or Taipei, etc., would be. Where the author is absolutely wrong is in his later assumption that cost-of-living is the primary driving factor in expat migration to Chiang Mai(there are many other factors, and the author shows no evidence he has any statistical basis for his statements about expat demography): "... has tempted thousands of expats who now live here" The author then goes on to form a hypothesis from his short stay in Chiang Mai: "... And their presence [he's speaking of expats in Chiang Mai] has sparked a possible explanation for this apparent paradox." The "paradox" which the author claims is a causal factor of what he perceives as a "skewed" distribution of skilled programmers, not just in Thailand, but in other countries: is absurd; a violation of at least two of the logical principles of inference. Another absurdity in the article is where the author mentions "Chiang Mai" along with "Bangalore," as if there were a "parallel:" "Instead you’ll advance to the point at which you’re reasonably happy with your paycheck, which studies indicate is about $70,000/year in America. (But much less in Chiang Mai or Bangalore.)" Chiang Mai, and Thailand, is an "absolute zero" in software development compared to India: to Bangalore; or Hyderabad; or Mumbai. There are very few expat programmers here. Only two companies of small size that I know of in Chiang Mai, where the owners are expats, and employees, in general, Thai. There may be out-sourcing "sweatshops" here in Thailand I don't know of, where crap-work is being performed: but, since average Thai mastery of English is so poor, compared to India, you can be sure there is no out-sourcing on-line voice-chat support industry here that can be compared to India, or other
:thumbsup: Oh, Bill - you're ruining a good story... ;)
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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harold aptroot wrote:
maybe I'll try again anyway
I hope so :-D Those who are able to get well paid often do so because they have honed their communication skills - and having said that, I hope you realize that getting 3,137 for your first article is pretty good.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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That's mostly because people keep downloading the code. Unfortunately for them the code works with approximately 1 router ever - the one I had at the time I wrote the article.
Don't let that worry you, the code for Security: It’s Getting Worse[^] gets downloaded on a regular basis - even though the article states that it's an example on how you're not supposed to do it :) 2,845 downloads indicate that something more on this would be appreciated.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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Good points - but it's often hard to initially figure out which one you've got on your hands during an interview - that may take several months.
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
I just recently had my share of interviews. Let's look at it from the other perspective. Becoming a code monkey is the last thing I would want and during the interview I try to find out what they are looking for. When they just keep asking questions about rules, best practices or standards, then they probably want a code monkey. Code monkeys do not need to know why they are doing something. They just have to know the rules and use them to do what they are told. Things usually get interesting for me when they start to ask questions which require understanding, not mindless devotion to rules and standards.
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I just recently had my share of interviews. Let's look at it from the other perspective. Becoming a code monkey is the last thing I would want and during the interview I try to find out what they are looking for. When they just keep asking questions about rules, best practices or standards, then they probably want a code monkey. Code monkeys do not need to know why they are doing something. They just have to know the rules and use them to do what they are told. Things usually get interesting for me when they start to ask questions which require understanding, not mindless devotion to rules and standards.
CDP1802 wrote:
during the interview I try to find out what they are looking for
Sometimes they only have a vague idea about what that really is.
CDP1802 wrote:
Code monkeys do not need to know why they are doing something. They just have to know the rules and use them to do what they are told.
Now, that is a recipe for disaster - and far too common. When you're about to instruct the worlds most efficient idiot - which I think aptly describes a computer - it certainly helps that you know the why of things. If you don't understand it, how can you model and implement it?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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CDP1802 wrote:
during the interview I try to find out what they are looking for
Sometimes they only have a vague idea about what that really is.
CDP1802 wrote:
Code monkeys do not need to know why they are doing something. They just have to know the rules and use them to do what they are told.
Now, that is a recipe for disaster - and far too common. When you're about to instruct the worlds most efficient idiot - which I think aptly describes a computer - it certainly helps that you know the why of things. If you don't understand it, how can you model and implement it?
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
I already had that dubious pleasure and do not wish to repeat it. But that's what all that talk about 'standards' is all about. The developers are just better secretaries to do the typing. What they are supposed to type is dictated by the 'standards' and enforced by style checking tools. Understanding is not required. It's even unwanted, since it makes the people ask awkward questions instead of being 'productive'. And you can probably guess what happens when such a team runs into problems. They can't even start to deal with them, because they went through all the motions and rituals in the 'standardized' way which magically should eliminate any problems beforehand.
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I already had that dubious pleasure and do not wish to repeat it. But that's what all that talk about 'standards' is all about. The developers are just better secretaries to do the typing. What they are supposed to type is dictated by the 'standards' and enforced by style checking tools. Understanding is not required. It's even unwanted, since it makes the people ask awkward questions instead of being 'productive'. And you can probably guess what happens when such a team runs into problems. They can't even start to deal with them, because they went through all the motions and rituals in the 'standardized' way which magically should eliminate any problems beforehand.
CDP1802 wrote:
Understanding is not required. It's even unwanted, since it makes the people ask awkward questions instead of being 'productive'.
I think I can sympathize with this :laugh: It's usually best to just leave them to it (and perhaps run for the hills). Awkward questions should be on the table as early as possible, but that might not be practical because we just landed the deal, sales is happy, management is happy - please don't ruin the mood. Good developers are really, really hard to find - and defining what actually makes a developer good is pretty hard too, it's just that some of the biggest companies in the industry has worked very hard to sell the concept of outsourcing/offshoring - which is based on a fundamental untruth about architecture and systems development: You can just hire a head.
CDP1802 wrote:
dictated by the 'standards'
Seems you are talking about the kind of coders that can, and perhaps should, be replaced by code generators.
CDP1802 wrote:
when such a team runs into problems
Oh, you mean blame shifting ;)
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
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CDP1802 wrote:
Understanding is not required. It's even unwanted, since it makes the people ask awkward questions instead of being 'productive'.
I think I can sympathize with this :laugh: It's usually best to just leave them to it (and perhaps run for the hills). Awkward questions should be on the table as early as possible, but that might not be practical because we just landed the deal, sales is happy, management is happy - please don't ruin the mood. Good developers are really, really hard to find - and defining what actually makes a developer good is pretty hard too, it's just that some of the biggest companies in the industry has worked very hard to sell the concept of outsourcing/offshoring - which is based on a fundamental untruth about architecture and systems development: You can just hire a head.
CDP1802 wrote:
dictated by the 'standards'
Seems you are talking about the kind of coders that can, and perhaps should, be replaced by code generators.
CDP1802 wrote:
when such a team runs into problems
Oh, you mean blame shifting ;)
Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra
Espen Harlinn wrote:
Oh, you mean blame shifting ;)
That's also a standard. You are supposed to do it as you are told and if it works the lead will take all the credit for his brilliant planning. When it fails, you are immediatly under suspicion of having violated the unfailing standards and should expect the inquisition. In case you get off the inquisition's hook, you still are guilty because you suddently are expected to think for yourself and should have foreseen the problem.