Why Python?
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
When I was in South Africa I taught a first year university course called Fundamental Algorithmic Concepts which also included some basic programming skills. It was a school-side decision that Python was considered to be the best first language and so that's what I had to use. (We used C on Unix platforms when I took the course). I put a lot of thought into that question because it seemed to me a dumbing down of the course content. Don't get me wrong, Python is a powerful language that is not overly platform dependent and it allows feature-rich programs to be developed quickly. The problem that I have with it is that it masks a lot of the internal workings of programming languages and compilers. Syntactically, once a person knows Python, it is fairly easy to convert a Python program to C but end up with inefficient or even dangerous code as a result. I guess Python allows the instructor to abstract out just the programming aspects of the content without having to pay attention to the architecture/memory aspects of the system(s) that program is going to run on. But I think that ultimately, if your friend wants to transition to a job beyond merely coding to a spec, he would need to get familiar with some C-like language.
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Python is considered a great beginner programming language. People learn basic concepts in Python and then move to other languages for more advanced concepts. Everyone learns programming in little bits at a time, and Python makes the basic, early bits easy to digest.
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Python is replacing IDL more and more in the scientific world. I know some Python and although it can be compiled I do see it more as a scripting language. It´s pretty good, well documented and quite powerful, though some getting used too. It has many libraries and apparently can plugin C++ code pretty well. (never tried it) I´m happy they learn Python instead of VBScript or something similar :p
V.
(MQOTD rules and previous solutions) -
Python is replacing IDL more and more in the scientific world. I know some Python and although it can be compiled I do see it more as a scripting language. It´s pretty good, well documented and quite powerful, though some getting used too. It has many libraries and apparently can plugin C++ code pretty well. (never tried it) I´m happy they learn Python instead of VBScript or something similar :p
V.
(MQOTD rules and previous solutions)Do VbScript even exist anymore? I always saw it as the "slightly more retarded" cousin of JavaScript :P
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
But am I wrong?
It doesn't matter what you think, only that your friend use the tools/technologies offered by the instructor. Even if you are 100% right, that would not get him a passing grade. When he gets out into the real world, then he can use what he wants (per your suggestions).
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
Why Python?
Teacher probably likes it.
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable
When I went to university I was taught, at a very basic level, several languages. If this is a university why are they not doing that? If it is some technical school where the intent is solely to get someone working then a fixed focus single language might be better.
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages?
Definitely. C is procedural Java/C#/C++ are OO SQL itself is different than others and extensions to that are procedural (but attempting on procedural concepts is a big mistake.)
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yeah I'm not sure I'd trust mono in a production environment. "Maybe it's fine"
I read a comment from someone who works at a company that has C# running on Mono that runs on Fortune 500 comapny servers without issue.
.-. |o,o| ,| \_\\=/\_ .-""-. ||/\_/\_\\\_\\ /\[\] \_ \_\\ |\_/|(\_)|\\\\ \_|\_o\_LII|\_ \\.\_./// / | ==== | \\ |\\\_/|"\` |\_| ==== |\_| |\_|\_| ||" || || |-|-| ||LI o || |\_|\_| ||'----'|| /\_/ \\\_\\ /\_\_| |\_\_\\ -
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
Why Python?
Because Rattlesnake just won't do? :)
If first you don't succeed, hide all evidence you ever tried!
And ASP was already taken...
Will Rogers never met me.
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yeah I'm not sure I'd trust mono in a production environment. "Maybe it's fine"
Mono is definitely fine.
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Python isn't bad, especially compared to C-like languages like C#/Java. You get (out the box) at least the same libraries as you do for DotNet/JVM, and then some (as Python's own built-in libs are enormous compared to most others). The thing which Python does "really" well is the ease of using much more complicated data structures (lists, hashtables, etc. are no more complicated to use than arrays in C). Other stuff are things like a REPL (though not as perfect as Lisp/Hasskell's). Really clean code - it's sometimes referred to as an exact 1:1 translation of pseudo code. It provides some functional paradigms, but not a full fledged FP language. No strict OO - i.e. a function need not be part-n-parcel of a class. Much less code to write than C#/Java to get the same thing. OO concepts in it's imports statement, e.g. you can import an entire "package" normally, then refer to it's internals using the OO-dot-notation, or using the * wildcard to import the internals as if loaded locally, or import a single internal without the rest of the package. It has a very large community, thus mentors and examples are not difficult to find. There are some issues with Python: Dynamic typing - though this isn't necessarily a problem. But for someone coming from a C-like language you'd probably miss the explicit typing. The biggest possible issue I can see with this is some error checks are impossible which are possible in a explicitly- (C) or inferred (Haskell/F#) typed language. Though there are alternatives - e.g. PyLint. It's interpreted by default, though some of its implementations do compile. E.g. CPython compiles to pyc files on the fly (these are similar to Java's class files in that they're bytecode to be run through the PVM. Others also add high optimization (e.g. PyPy), compiling to other VM's (e.g Jython for JVM, IronPython for DotNet), and binary compiling comparable to most other languages (e.g. Nuitka). Non-pure closures, it's version of lexical scoping is a bit weird - and therefore pure FP isn't possible. But this you only notice if you're used to a full FP language (like Scheme / F# / Haskell / etc.) - you'd not notice the difference if you come from a procedural language like C. This has been alleviated a bit in Py 3 with its nonlocal keyword though. Python (as is) doesn't do multi-threading, not easily at least. But there is the multiprocess interface, easy to use, but means more RAM for processes than threads. Only single-line lambdas are possible. It's OO method's a bit "strange" in that
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
I currently work mostly under Windows in a variety of languages. I prefer C# for getting things done more quickly (and reliably) but often end up having to use Python. You can get off the ground far faster in Python but your maximum altitude, range and reliability are more limited. As an introduction to programming it's OK, especially for students who don't plan on going any further. But I wouldn't use it too much before moving on to something more "structured" for anybody looking at a career in programming.
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Keith Barrow wrote:
I often think whether there is space for a programming language specifically for teaching,
Problem with that is that no-one will want to learn it - as it has no commercial use. And if it gets picked up as a commercial language, everyone will just belittle it in the same way they do VB (and probably for the same reasons)
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
There have been plenty of "teaching" languages in the past BASIC, LOGO, Pascal, Modula 2 to name just 4.
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Odd that, at my old school (where I studied EE, not CS) they taught ML, not because it was popular but rather because it wasn't popular, which meant that the teachers could teach programming instead of a language. The students had lots of opinions about that.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
the teachers could teach programming instead of a language
They should see the Guide to Being a Programmer.
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote:
Python is what the programmers need today
That's very debatable. It depends on where and what he wants to work with. There is no silver bullet. Having said that, I'd urge him to learn C, not because of the style, but of what he can learn with it. Working with pointers and manual memory management can prepare his mind to develop much more efficient code in high level languages. Once you can program in C, you can program in virtually anything else (except lower level assembly and the sorts). It's a great common ground to have.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Python isn't bad, especially compared to C-like languages like C#/Java. You get (out the box) at least the same libraries as you do for DotNet/JVM, and then some (as Python's own built-in libs are enormous compared to most others). The thing which Python does "really" well is the ease of using much more complicated data structures (lists, hashtables, etc. are no more complicated to use than arrays in C). Other stuff are things like a REPL (though not as perfect as Lisp/Hasskell's). Really clean code - it's sometimes referred to as an exact 1:1 translation of pseudo code. It provides some functional paradigms, but not a full fledged FP language. No strict OO - i.e. a function need not be part-n-parcel of a class. Much less code to write than C#/Java to get the same thing. OO concepts in it's imports statement, e.g. you can import an entire "package" normally, then refer to it's internals using the OO-dot-notation, or using the * wildcard to import the internals as if loaded locally, or import a single internal without the rest of the package. It has a very large community, thus mentors and examples are not difficult to find. There are some issues with Python: Dynamic typing - though this isn't necessarily a problem. But for someone coming from a C-like language you'd probably miss the explicit typing. The biggest possible issue I can see with this is some error checks are impossible which are possible in a explicitly- (C) or inferred (Haskell/F#) typed language. Though there are alternatives - e.g. PyLint. It's interpreted by default, though some of its implementations do compile. E.g. CPython compiles to pyc files on the fly (these are similar to Java's class files in that they're bytecode to be run through the PVM. Others also add high optimization (e.g. PyPy), compiling to other VM's (e.g Jython for JVM, IronPython for DotNet), and binary compiling comparable to most other languages (e.g. Nuitka). Non-pure closures, it's version of lexical scoping is a bit weird - and therefore pure FP isn't possible. But this you only notice if you're used to a full FP language (like Scheme / F# / Haskell / etc.) - you'd not notice the difference if you come from a procedural language like C. This has been alleviated a bit in Py 3 with its nonlocal keyword though. Python (as is) doesn't do multi-threading, not easily at least. But there is the multiprocess interface, easy to use, but means more RAM for processes than threads. Only single-line lambdas are possible. It's OO method's a bit "strange" in that
irneb wrote:
but at some point you need to look deeper into the details also - thus it might be very good to move onto C after Python, and then onto a more "normal" OO like Java/C#. And then to really get into the FP bracket, Scheme/Haskell.
That :thumbsup:
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
One thing that Python has going for it is its simplicity. It's a simple language, where you don't need a lot of OO cruft to get results from. The other is a truly dedicated set of people who not only love the language, but love to contribute to it. The IPython notebook system is excellent for testing snippets of code, and seeing the results immediately. http://www.pgbovine.net/ipython-notebook-first-impressions.htm[^] I'd disagree with the teacher where he says that "Python is what programmers need today to be hireable", but there's a lot of power in the language, and it's being used by squads of scientists who aren't waiting for a programmer/developer/analyst to get around to resolving their issues.
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And ASP was already taken...
Will Rogers never met me.
*flicks tongue-in-cheek*
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Mono is definitely fine.
Sorry - I would never trust mono.
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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python? I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong? The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages? -frank
Frank, Honestly my first language was BASIC (on a Timex Sinclair, no less). Having programmed in over 30 languages and more than a few "custom" languages, I like the idea of Python for a first language. (C was always my favorite language, but is requires running before you can walk for most new programmers). Here is why I like Python: 1) It teaches INDENTATION (and requires it), which makes code more readable to humans, a big point for beginners 2) It is quite forgiving, and does not require that ; 3) It has the basics, and even the advanced iterators 4) You can leverage libraries very early, very easily 5) It can grow to handle large problems And frankly, the argument over what language is best is TOUGH. Whatever language someone is teaching, and if you enjoy the class, and really sink your teeth into the work, it really does not matter that much. I think of the language as a TOOL, like a TYPE of Hammer... The problem, many times, screams for a specific language. I learned this lesson when I tried to write a BASIC "renumber" program using COBOL (ANSI 76 Cobol). I gave up. The string handling/parsing was near impossible for me. I was still in high school, and I challenged myself. I switched to Fortran, and it got was easy. I always felt it would have been easier to use the MACRO-11 Assembly over Cobol (and later when I taught myself the Assembly, I realized it would have been). So, don't get all religious on the choice of the first language. As long as he doesnt get a disease from his "first", he will be fine, and able to choose better according to the problems he has to solve. Instead encourage him to READ a lot of the code, and IMPLEMENT something interesting.
