[WAR] Some questions...

Michael A Barnhart

David Wulff wrote: I don't agree with all of that, but you certainly get my five for being well said. Thanks, I should have said my observations vs my views. It is some mixture of what I feel and what I percive those around me feel. ""

David Wulff

Nitron wrote: The general view in europe is that Saddam has been opressed from technology and isn't capable of anything devastating What makes you draw that conclusion? :confused:

David Wulff

"Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]

Nitron

Because 19 out of 20 people or so from there believe Saddam is no threat and has no technology. (The above poster being 1, and I'm sure you can scroll through the messages and check the demographics to pick up the other 18. I may be stereotyping, but it's a stereotype based on observation. Although I could be wrong... - Nitron

"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb

David Wulff

Could be wrong? Yes you are. Things are not as black and white as you see.

David Wulff

"Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]

Lost User

Paul Watson wrote: The classic thing is how so many of these pro-peace protests resort to violent or demeaning slogans. Or violence in general. This irony should not be lost on anyone. Paul Watson wrote: Also of course we hear about these "massive" rallies and then realise they are 10k people out of a population of 260 million. How many of the rest of that population are just too lazy to get up and march and how many are not marching because they are pro-war? Another excellent point. Another thing I've noticed is that some of the "protestors" seem to be more interested in smiling, waving and mugging for the camera than anything else. I question their true motivations and the depth of their convictions. Mike Mullikin :beer:

"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

Nitron

Then enlighten me. All I see in the media WRT the UK are violent peace-monger rallies and anti-bush/blair celebrations. Is there more? - Nitron

"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb

Christian Ballerstaller

Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: And - also interesting: why is nobody afraid here in europe? Just an answer but maybe it is because you are not being blamed for most of the worlds problems, like many in the US feel they are being blamed, and are then targets. Yes, Michael. I completely agree. But where does it come from that US is blamed for the world problems? Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: We don't understand your thoughts here in europe. Why do you have this climate of fear? Why is it so extreme? Well from my side I do not see this climate of fear or extremism either. So it looks like your news sources are not really any better or objective than mine. Hmm. My sources are the people in the states and here. And in general the americans have more fear. Fear about criminals (why does US have the highest murder rate?), fear about their future and job (US is one of the richest countries - but there's nearly no social system compared to europe) and fear about other countries. Example Iraq: Do you really think, Saddam would have been so stupid and attacked US? Why should he? He knows that he doesn't have a chance. And he knows that no one in the world would have tried to stop US striking back. So... this is why I wouldn't have fear if I would be an US citizen. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: p.s. A last comment: American TV Stations like CNN, NBC and so on are broadcasting crap all the time. Correct, They are in business to sell their ratings, Just like tabloid news papers through out the world. If you want any decent news you have to go to the radio news (some of which is public stations more like the BBC is.) or other purchased papers. Can you tell me a newspaper that has decent news? Thanks for your explanations :) Chris

Paul Watson

That is quite a common thing here in South Africa. You get tens of thousands of protesting blacks and 90% of them are toy toying (a kind of protest dance, lots of clapping, stamping of feet, dancing around, smiles.) When interviewed they are all pumped up and happy, smiling away. It is very strange for us European kin to see (we like our angry, violent, dour marches.) Mike Mullikin wrote: Or violence in general. This irony should not be lost on anyone. Like the anti-globalisation nuts often peace activists are their own worst enemies.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.

Doug Goulden

David Wulff wrote: They should be removed from the equation Its one of the beauties of the system that even ignorant people get to vote. Unfortunately, it really is the right way Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Paul Watson

How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? Or do the minority only ever march?

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.

Nitron

Paul Watson wrote: How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? Because people would view it as arrogant and wrong... :rolleyes: - Nitron

"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb

Doug Goulden

Its not just the fact Sadaam Hussein probably has biological weapons and chemical weapons. Its the fact that he has used them, against Iran and his own people. After the events of 9/11, Americans are mostly unwilling to accept the idea that Sadaam won't arm UBL or use them himself. You don't need long range missles to distribute chemical or biological weapons, they could be delivered by infecting people, or from crop dusters. Regardless of whether you support the war or not its not hard to imagine SH giving biological weapons to UBL. Politics do make strange bedfellows, the US being an enemy of SH, its conceivable to imagine that happening. The idea that SH wouldn't supply those weapons to people he couldn't directly control? Well that didn't stop Quadaffi from helping terrorist, or the Taliban. I support the US position that we need to remove SH from power. I don't want the US to rule the world, and I don't think that the world needs to be just like us. The Syrians and Saudi Arabia and others who support terrorism should wake up to the idea that we will track down the people who have (or will) hurt us. On the other hand we need to balance this with the need to be more even handed in our foreign policy towards the Palestinian - Israeli conflict. The US would just as soon stay here at home and take care of our kids and live our own lives, just like 99.9% of the rest of the world. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Nitron

Christian Ballerstaller wrote: But where does it come from that US is blamed for the world problems? Most likely the economic power of the US. Nobody likes a yuppie capitalist, so just say it's all their fault. :~ [edit] Well, I guess Hollywood would be a close second, and I'm sure MTV doesn't help. X| [/edit] [edit2] On second thought, better add CNN to that list... [/edit2] - Nitron

"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb

Doug Goulden

Paul Watson wrote: How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? I support the need to remove Sadaam Hussein, but I'm not pro-war. No sane person could believe that war is a desirable state of affairs. The disagreement that I have with most of the "pro-peace" crowd is that sometimes war is necessary (but evil). Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

That's why I stopped to watch news channes and read newspapers. 98% is BS, propaganda, info war. We won't have any reliable data before the end of this war.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

David Wulff

Try looking to some British media for the British view, not your own. Same as we have to WRT the US. There is plenty out there. What you are seeing is pro-war propaganda; not to be wholey unexpected.

David Wulff

"Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]

David Wulff

Yeah I know, it's just a shame so few people actually realise the true value of their vote. :((

David Wulff

"Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]

Joe Woodbury

Just some clarification: Christian Ballerstaller wrote: why does US have the highest murder rate? It doesn't. In fact, several European cities have a higher murder rate than the US. If you remove the top metropolitan areas, the murder rate in the US is lower than that of Switzerland. Ironically, many Americans make this same assumption. But they aren't alone in misunderstanding things like murder rates. Overreacting to news seems to be a common human trait. Someone wrote: American TV Stations like CNN, NBC... some of which is public stations more like the BBC is Christian Ballerstaller wrote: Can you tell me a newspaper that has decent news? I use many news sources for my information and have found that American news is no better or worse than all the other news. ALL news has a bias and caters to their market. In my experience, if the bias of the news reflects the views of their audience, they will be perceived as objective by that audience. I have found that NPR and BBC are unabashedly liberal, but worthwhile as news sources when taken in with the Wall Street Journal and even Fox News, amongst others. (And for all the complaints of CNN, incidentally, my least favorite source along with the New York Times, it was one of the few to honestly report numbers at anti-war rallies AND, importantly, pro-war rallies.) (You can extend this general rule to politics. When politicians don't do what a segment of the population wants, which is inevitable in a pluralistic society, that segment generally complains how undemocratic things are and that politicians are being paid off, etc.) Joe

Joe Woodbury

Paul Watson wrote: How come in the US and other pro-war nations there were no pro-war marches against the pro-peace rallies? There have been, though many are held as pro-American or pro-Soldier rallies. In many cities, those attending these marches and demonstrations have outnumbered those at the anti-war rallies. (Even NPR finally reported this about some demonstrations. CNN also reported this.) Of course, if you are in a minority on an opinion, a rally can be an effective way to garner more publicity that you would otherwise receive. (Though I believe they are far less effective than people generally perceive. They mainly just tend to reinforce supporters attitudes.) (Out of curiosity, and not being the least bit sarcastic, before the fall of apartheid, did anyone hold Pro-Apartheid marches?)

Lost User

a legimitation (suspecting a country to have biological weapons) - than goodbye world. Then US could make war to every other country. ..also, any country could make war with US, although there are not many in the world who may want to do that. It is about balance of power. When the balance of power tilts against US sometime in the future, this precedence will haunt them. They have set an unhealthy precedent on unilateral aggression, with a spin of "self-defence". I am well aware that Iraq may have violated many UN resolutions, and the world community have a reason to remove Saddam; but the war is certainly not for defense. One day before the war, Kuwaitis say on FOX that they have no fear of the war affecting them. Americans are also going about ehir life normally, despite being in a homeland security orange. Noone I talked to (not a large cross section of American people, but they are all from NY though) even expects a terrorist attack to happen now. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers