Money vs. Flexibility
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What's more important to you, in terms of your job, making a lot of money or having a flexible/casual work environment? Of course, both is best, but let's say you had to pick one. I know some people who don't care about working endlessly in a high-pressure job because they make a ton of money. On the other hand, I know other people who are willing to make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? Raves?!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
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What's more important to you, in terms of your job, making a lot of money or having a flexible/casual work environment? Of course, both is best, but let's say you had to pick one. I know some people who don't care about working endlessly in a high-pressure job because they make a ton of money. On the other hand, I know other people who are willing to make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? Raves?!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
As others have said, I think it has to be balanced. A little worse environment for much more money, I'll probably take it. A little less money for much better environment, I'll take it. Much less money, probably I won't since I have some needs to fulfill. But, I run my own business, so I can do whatever I want :) Seriously, with the guys that work with me, I am quite flexible with the time. As long as they complete they work and bill their hours, they can skip an afternoon or get our earlier. I am very flexible and I think it has worked very well.
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix Chihuahua, Mexico
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What's more important to you, in terms of your job, making a lot of money or having a flexible/casual work environment? Of course, both is best, but let's say you had to pick one. I know some people who don't care about working endlessly in a high-pressure job because they make a ton of money. On the other hand, I know other people who are willing to make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? Raves?!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
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I share the same thoughts as you too. But i had problem finding a job i like. I think its a culture thing here. Perhaps in software development world here, there is no such thing as less money, more personal time. :~
Weiye Chen A self proclaimed hermit living in a cave, with his PC connected to the world.
Weiye Chen wrote:
But i had problem finding a job i like.
So did I. In fact it was really hard for me as well. I even got depressed about it and my enjoyment of the craft suffered. But, I did eventually find an organization that was a fit for me. However, it was pretty ironical that just about three years after finding the right fit, I left the company to become a consultant and stay at home with my son. I can't say I've ever been more satisfied or motivated:) Life is pretty cool like that sometimes. Here is some unsolicited and sappy advice. Just keep that ideal situation in the back of your mind and I am sure you will find a way.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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I'd go for the casual job every time. I've worked in places where tie is mandatory, you're in trouble if you are two (yes, just two) minutes late, you can't listen to music, and all the other corporate crap. My current place is extremely cool, to the point of being ridiculous. :cool: For example, dress code at the moment (summer) is shorts and t-shirt. About the only rules are general cleanliness and no spagetti straps or wife-beater type things. Heck, I've seen people here in pajama bottoms. I shave about once a week, when I remember. So long as you put in 8 hours a day, you can come in and leave whenever you like. Every single employee (50 of us) has a key to the door and combination for the security system, so you can work whenever you need to, without worrying if someone in authority will be present to lock/unlock for you. So, I come in at 7:00 and I'm out at 3:30 in the afternoon. :cool: I bring my laptop to work every day, and hook it up to the company network - no questions asked. I listen to streaming internet radio all day and occasionally chat with my wife on MSN Messenger. I can work at home if necessary, but I rarely do so. Vacation time is a bit short (no paid vacation for the first year of employment), but when you actually want to go to work, it doesn't really matter. Compared to some places I've worked, this place is awesome. I could earn 3 times as much by moving 200 miles north to Silicon Valley, but I just couldn't stand it up there...
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | A Random Web Page
I agree, the place I work is nice. The dress code (right now for summer) is shorts & a shirt (like Miszou no spaghetti straps, wife beaters and such), now during the winter it is business casual but I can deal with that. Vacation (to start) is 8 hours a month available after the first 6 months, they only give 4 hours sick time a month but I can live with that (and both can roll over year to year, hell I know a guy there who now has 15 weeks vacation time). The pay is decent (it's at least in the top 40% for this side of the state) but at work I can listen to music, they buy IT kick a** equipment to work with (Intel Duo Core Processor (2), 4 GB memory, 2 250 GB drives, ATI X1900 video cards, 2 22 inch monitors), hell they even paid to get a couple of us our MCSD & MCAD .Net certifications. A company would have to have one hell of a package to get me to leave where I'm at now. [ EDIT ] As long as you put in your 8 hours they don't care (you can even do part of it from home. When I went in for surgery 3 weeks the company took a donation from everyone of vacation time so I wouldn't lose any pay while I was recovering [ /EDIT ]
"Okay, I give up: which is NOT a real programming language????" Michael Bergman
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I agree, the place I work is nice. The dress code (right now for summer) is shorts & a shirt (like Miszou no spaghetti straps, wife beaters and such), now during the winter it is business casual but I can deal with that. Vacation (to start) is 8 hours a month available after the first 6 months, they only give 4 hours sick time a month but I can live with that (and both can roll over year to year, hell I know a guy there who now has 15 weeks vacation time). The pay is decent (it's at least in the top 40% for this side of the state) but at work I can listen to music, they buy IT kick a** equipment to work with (Intel Duo Core Processor (2), 4 GB memory, 2 250 GB drives, ATI X1900 video cards, 2 22 inch monitors), hell they even paid to get a couple of us our MCSD & MCAD .Net certifications. A company would have to have one hell of a package to get me to leave where I'm at now. [ EDIT ] As long as you put in your 8 hours they don't care (you can even do part of it from home. When I went in for surgery 3 weeks the company took a donation from everyone of vacation time so I wouldn't lose any pay while I was recovering [ /EDIT ]
"Okay, I give up: which is NOT a real programming language????" Michael Bergman
Psycho-*Coder*-Extreme wrote:
wife beaters and such
What's a wife beater? Is that slang for a pair of thongs?
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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I'd go for the casual job every time. I've worked in places where tie is mandatory, you're in trouble if you are two (yes, just two) minutes late, you can't listen to music, and all the other corporate crap. My current place is extremely cool, to the point of being ridiculous. :cool: For example, dress code at the moment (summer) is shorts and t-shirt. About the only rules are general cleanliness and no spagetti straps or wife-beater type things. Heck, I've seen people here in pajama bottoms. I shave about once a week, when I remember. So long as you put in 8 hours a day, you can come in and leave whenever you like. Every single employee (50 of us) has a key to the door and combination for the security system, so you can work whenever you need to, without worrying if someone in authority will be present to lock/unlock for you. So, I come in at 7:00 and I'm out at 3:30 in the afternoon. :cool: I bring my laptop to work every day, and hook it up to the company network - no questions asked. I listen to streaming internet radio all day and occasionally chat with my wife on MSN Messenger. I can work at home if necessary, but I rarely do so. Vacation time is a bit short (no paid vacation for the first year of employment), but when you actually want to go to work, it doesn't really matter. Compared to some places I've worked, this place is awesome. I could earn 3 times as much by moving 200 miles north to Silicon Valley, but I just couldn't stand it up there...
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | A Random Web Page
Miszou wrote:
Heck, I've seen people here in pajama bottoms. I shave about once a week, when I remember.
Man, that's pretty laid back work place :-D
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
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Psycho-*Coder*-Extreme wrote:
wife beaters and such
What's a wife beater? Is that slang for a pair of thongs?
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
a wife beater[^] is slang for like a tank top type shirt
"Well yes, it is an Integer, but it's a metrosexual Integer. For all we know, under all that hair gel it could be a Boolean." Tom Welch
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Psycho-*Coder*-Extreme wrote:
wife beaters and such
What's a wife beater? Is that slang for a pair of thongs?
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
What's a wife beater?
It's like an egg beater[^] only much, much bigger.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
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Psycho-*Coder*-Extreme wrote:
wife beaters and such
What's a wife beater? Is that slang for a pair of thongs?
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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Thanks... yes I was serious... must be a localised slang - never heard it before in my life...
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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a wife beater[^] is slang for like a tank top type shirt
"Well yes, it is an Integer, but it's a metrosexual Integer. For all we know, under all that hair gel it could be a Boolean." Tom Welch
Thanks for that... never heard it before...
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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What's more important to you, in terms of your job, making a lot of money or having a flexible/casual work environment? Of course, both is best, but let's say you had to pick one. I know some people who don't care about working endlessly in a high-pressure job because they make a ton of money. On the other hand, I know other people who are willing to make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? Raves?!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
I'd go for the more casual work environment that inspires me to do creative and innovative things. Luckely for me I found an environment where creativity I can make innovative applications and it pays well too. I think it's important for people to be happy with the job they are doing rather than make a ton of money and be under high pressure all the time. It kills the fun quite rapidly and you end up with a huge burn-out or a one of a kind mouse arm.
WM. What about weapons of mass-construction? "What? Its an Apple MacBook Pro. They are sexy!" - Paul Watson My blog
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Josh Smith wrote:
make less money to gain more personal time and freedom.
I made this move in the past and was quite happy with the results. If I were to offer my thoughts it would be simple: Don't work somewhere where you aren't happy.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
Josh Smith wrote: make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. I made this move in the past and was quite happy with the results. If I were to offer my thoughts it would be simple: Don't work somewhere where you aren't happy.
I did too. I moved from one place to another for the same salary as I wasn't happy with the first place and found I enjoyed working for them. 2 years later I left that company and joined another for more money and found I'm not enjoying it as much. I am learning newer skills. It goes to show that money and skills are always better than being happy. Confucius once said: "Choose a job you love and you will never work a day in your life. How true.
Never argue with an imbecile; they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
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What's more important to you, in terms of your job, making a lot of money or having a flexible/casual work environment? Of course, both is best, but let's say you had to pick one. I know some people who don't care about working endlessly in a high-pressure job because they make a ton of money. On the other hand, I know other people who are willing to make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? Raves?!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
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What's more important to you, in terms of your job, making a lot of money or having a flexible/casual work environment? Of course, both is best, but let's say you had to pick one. I know some people who don't care about working endlessly in a high-pressure job because they make a ton of money. On the other hand, I know other people who are willing to make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? Raves?!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
I would definately have to pick flexibility. I have been in a programming job that paid almost $90k. However, there was NO flexibility, ridiculous deadlines, no benefits, and no PTO. To me, my time off is more important than my paycheck. If I need extra money, I would figure something else out. If you don't have time off, you are headed for a burn-out. Once you hit a full blown burnout, getting back up on the horse is REALLY tough. Unfortunately, I speak from experience in that arena. Personally, I'd like to find a company (or start one) that allowed you to dress however you wanted, had paid lunch hours, was a real relaxed environment, and was fun to work at. I have taken jobs that paid less than the one before just because of the promise of one or more of those wishes. Usually, some bonehead with a "C" in the beginning of his/her title comes in and decides that the practice I liked was not "good for the company image" or someother bureaucratic B.S. and they take it away. My resume' usually hits DICE.COM or MONSTER.COM within a couple of days!
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
Why are we still calling it 'Common Sense' when it's not that common?
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Chris Austin wrote:
Josh Smith wrote: make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. I made this move in the past and was quite happy with the results. If I were to offer my thoughts it would be simple: Don't work somewhere where you aren't happy.
I did too. I moved from one place to another for the same salary as I wasn't happy with the first place and found I enjoyed working for them. 2 years later I left that company and joined another for more money and found I'm not enjoying it as much. I am learning newer skills. It goes to show that money and skills are always better than being happy. Confucius once said: "Choose a job you love and you will never work a day in your life. How true.
Never argue with an imbecile; they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
UKCodeMonkey wrote:
Confucius once said: "Choose a job you love and you will never work a day in your life. How true.
That was me in real life: I wanted to be a chemist since I was a kid (occasinally alternating with generic scientist - they always saved the world from the monsters). I was paid to play for a living. Loads of time to learn new things (like computer programming to automate instruments, and later, to model reactions). In a positive sense, programming was a way to goof off and still produce something of value to management (like a patent). Nine years as the lone programmer (before my current position). A good confidence builder, but not as pleasant as being in a small group, each with independant projects, such as I now enjoy. Now, as a contractor, I've the freedom to make my own ours and work from home, as I choose - but that freedom comes at the price of slavery to the fact that if I take a day off I don't get paid. Don't overlook, or perhaps add to the equation of the original question: an environment where you can chat off-topic with the other programmers. Built into the relaxed atmosphere. I miss my lab equipment - make no mistake - but at least creativity can be maintained. Otherwise, one might as well work in a supermarket. So - for those who'd go for the money (if there are any): how much is an hour of life worth to you? Imagine you could sell them - instantly becoming older - how much would you want? Working is little different - if you don't enjoy what you're doing, then you're not paid enough.
"You sell all of your hours for a handful of dimes . . ." - Jimi Hendrix
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What's more important to you, in terms of your job, making a lot of money or having a flexible/casual work environment? Of course, both is best, but let's say you had to pick one. I know some people who don't care about working endlessly in a high-pressure job because they make a ton of money. On the other hand, I know other people who are willing to make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? Raves?!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
I work to live, not live to work. So my vote is: Flexibility
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I would definately have to pick flexibility. I have been in a programming job that paid almost $90k. However, there was NO flexibility, ridiculous deadlines, no benefits, and no PTO. To me, my time off is more important than my paycheck. If I need extra money, I would figure something else out. If you don't have time off, you are headed for a burn-out. Once you hit a full blown burnout, getting back up on the horse is REALLY tough. Unfortunately, I speak from experience in that arena. Personally, I'd like to find a company (or start one) that allowed you to dress however you wanted, had paid lunch hours, was a real relaxed environment, and was fun to work at. I have taken jobs that paid less than the one before just because of the promise of one or more of those wishes. Usually, some bonehead with a "C" in the beginning of his/her title comes in and decides that the practice I liked was not "good for the company image" or someother bureaucratic B.S. and they take it away. My resume' usually hits DICE.COM or MONSTER.COM within a couple of days!
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
Why are we still calling it 'Common Sense' when it's not that common?
I agree. We had a dress code change after being able to wear jeans every day except Monday. It's been over a year and I haven't seen one customer in the building - So who am I dressing up for? We're a manufacturing plant.. sheesh.
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What's more important to you, in terms of your job, making a lot of money or having a flexible/casual work environment? Of course, both is best, but let's say you had to pick one. I know some people who don't care about working endlessly in a high-pressure job because they make a ton of money. On the other hand, I know other people who are willing to make less money to gain more personal time and freedom. Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? Raves?!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
flexibility. Noone's going to pay me enough to take a job in a dense urban area with a long heavy traffic commute and a high stress working environment. I'd want the ability to bank on the order of $50k/year without compromising my current lifestyle. Even then they'd only get me for the few years it would take to be able to pay cash for a house in the rural to semirural area I'd prefer to be living in. :)
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer