Hiring Graduates
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R C W wrote:
My biggest fear is that potential employers will focus too much on grades. My grades are, in one word, terrible.
The most of what I'll see is that you got a degree in X. A simple pass/fail. Usually people who got the high marks will advertise it on their CV e.g. 1st class Honours Degree in X. Next, I'll probably look at the institution. A person who passed from one university may not be as good as a person who passed from another. On the flip side some excellent universities do some very highly theoretical courses that aren't much use outside academia. What sort of university do you go to?
R C W wrote:
I have been working on my own developing ASP.NET pages as well as some small windows apps. What are some qualities I can highlight that might counteract my grades?
Do you use proper OO practices, design patterns and the like? That is the sort of thing I'll be looking for. If you don't know what design patterns are get "Head First Design Patterns" it is an excellent introduction to the subject.
R C W wrote:
Also, do you think its best to explain my grades or just leave that topic alone?
Leave the topic alone. If you passed your degree, just say you have a degree in X. That is what I do - not because I got poor grades (I was 5th top of my class) but because I dropped out to start a company and I asked the uni' "If I leave now what will I get" and they told me I had enough credit for an ordinary degree (no distinction, honours, or anything like that, just a plain scraped pass style degree).
R C W wrote:
I really do believe that I could be a quality software developer.
Documentation is important. Don't pay it lip service. If you have home projects that you have written, document them - even if that is just XML comments on methods. Make sure they have unit tests. So few people know what unit testing is, and it is so important for producing quality software.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My
First off, thank you for your response. I attended a good university. When I started it was in the top 20 engineering schools. I have learned/use OO practices and design both in and out of school. I too dropped out one semester shy, but now I'm returning to school for my last semester. However, instead of withdrawing from classes, I just left so my GPA was ruined even more than before. I have learned unit testing and used it in school projects, but unfortunately not outside of school.
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
There are pros and cons to hiring fresh graduates. Some pros are you can pay them less because they are inexperienced, and you can mold them to the way things are done at your company. A con to hiring a graduate would be the fact that it will take time for them to learn and so will be unproductive until the process of learning is well under way. I know companies that had deviced non programming 'logic' tests in order to see if candidates had the aptitude to be software developers. Maybe a search in Google would turn up some info on that type of testing. I'm surprised your company only received 20 CVs. Has you company posted an ad in Dice.com or Monster.com?
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"It" could be anything but you would still be nude!!!
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
"It" could be anything but you would still be nude!!!/blockquote> Of course, now off you go and read my new post.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
I have had my best sucess with technical school graduates rather then university. Most of them at least understand the concept of reports with totals rather then a dozen different esoteric storage systems. Having interns also works even for smaller companies. You just have to gear the work required to their level and it gives you an opertunity to try them out to see how they work/think. The big thing is that they are all used to "passing" grades - if it works 75% it works. Most don't get that the client will only focus on what doesn't work, 99% is a passing grade. Look for people who are both logical and artistic you need both to be a good programmer. Lena
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
I remember some of the projects my fellows did for their final year. I spent practially all my time writing software and they were spending it all writing bizzare essays on "ubiquitous" computing.
Precisely. Too much time is spent on the philosophy of computing (and on studying how to puff out CVs and bull your way through interviews). Do we need philosophers in IT, or do we need people who can write and QC code? It would probably be advantageous to set up apprenticeships, taking on 18-year-olds who are still willing and eager to write code, and haven't been perverted by the academic attitude toward "those dreadful computer thingies". I'd be willing to bet they'd be up and running in production in a much shorter (and less painful) time.
*Waves moronically* I say I'm a student, because I'm about to hit a Computer Games Design course (with 2 directions: Design or Coding, and I'm taking the Coding). As of yet I've not started and I can tell you; the way I code is far different from anything I've looked at that was done professionally. One difference is that people like me are more about the functionality - get it working. Once you're told to do other things you get caught up trying to make code readable and extensible and any other fancy-sounding adjective just to make it "better" (or not). Much agreed on the idea of hiring Undergraduates. Oh, and if you want your first applicant? ;P
Ninja (the Nerd)
Confused? You will be... -
bryce wrote:
some of us clever trouser types to be found here on CP have quite some experience in it :)
...and I do it in the nude while drinking beer!
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
...that sounds like productivity to me! After all, everyone wins: You enjoy your work therefore are more likely to stick at it; you scare off any oncoming people who would bother you (except your wife who's seen it all before); and you keep the breweries open for the rest of us!
Ninja (the Nerd)
Confused? You will be... -
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I think you get the idea - come up with something that could be finished in about six hours by someone with the desired level of experience, and see what happens.
We actually already do this, but a 2 hour version. It really weeds out those that aren't skilled enough.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Sounds like that movie Swordfish where they guy has to crack a 1024 bit encryption password in under 60 sec while rated R content.
Todd Smith
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this is my first year of working as a programmer, i was fortunate enough to be hired straight out of uni, and i was thrown straight into the deep end and had to adapt very quickly, it is still an ongoing learning experience i dont think i know it all, i dont think anyone knows it all but its the willingness to learn that drives me on. I still am in contact with some of my old class mates and they say its impossible to find a job without experience which is the case for any job, but i guess the point im trying to make is how are we (graduates) supposed to get anywhere if you don't give us a chance to prove our potential. Instead of looking for skilled programmer hire a graduate and mould them to your company standards
Yeah, everyone wants experience around here, but they seldom ever want to pay for the experience they want. I am actually only one year into my job, which I started one year after doing mostly nothing for a year after graduating. However, my husband is also a programmer and has been for at least 10 years, so I get to hear a lot about his office and staff ;) There are a lot of small companies here, and not a lot of experienced programmers, and a university with a comp sci department, so there are probably better opportunities for graduates because people know they are available and what they can do (as everyone already working is also from the same uni) - and no one has much money so they want to hire graduates because they are cheap! It is harder for an experienced programmer to get a job here that will pay anything like what they would already be getting (which is how the "bad" companies keep (most) of their staff).
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
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Well said. I agree, there is a lot of people out there with loads of experience, but don't learn well. Yeah they've coded in a dozen languages on everything from a vacuum tube computer to a 64 way SMP box. But what they don't mention is they purchased the software and wrote a script to call the program. Or they had a buddy at the company that was a guru, and they never had to learn something new because if they got stuck they asked him, and he spit out the code for him. Give them a couple problems, see how they think. Explain the challenges of the job, and if the problems excite them, and they can problem solve, they'll be thinking about their project when they are at home watching TV. I like my current job, and I've spend numerous hours on the side thinking up solutions to problems. Ask them as a kid what they played with. That should throw them off. But if their answer is lego, Rubix cubes and puzzles, chances are they like to solve problems.
I don't know what it is like with other jobs, but I agree that in the case of programmers, they often give extra value by "thinking on the side". Even if they don't actually program out of work hours (like I don't) then they will be thinking about the problem. Programming obviously involves a lot of thinking, so this thinking is very valuable. And it doesn't even seem like work since you can do it while walking, exercising, showering, whatever! That "what toys did you play with" question is awesome :-D
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
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standgale wrote:
Of course the tutor wouldn't mark his program and made him do it again using the proper buttons.
Wow, kind of a metaphor for my entire educational experience. :)
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
I did both of the "write a simple calculator" labs in one go, and he wouldn't mark the first lab until I had changed it back so it ONLY did the stuff that was required for the first lab. Note that the second lab only required adding functionality so all of the previous labs stuff was still there and working. I am almost paralysed by the stupidity of that. And he used to call the STUDENTS stupid. I'm not sure how he became and remained employed as a tutor. I think you're right in your comment. This is not an isolated experience, nor is it confined to such simple examples but can be applied more broadly. Two more examples - when I was 5 or 6 I was told off for reading the school journals (little books of reading materials for the kids) above my level and I had to read them in secret. One teacher at my intermediate school said she did not think I should be advanced a class "because my hand-writing was not good enough". Ha, who's laughing now, hmmm? Am I hand-writing anything? No. Typing. And when did you last see hand-writing you could actually read anyway? Apart from that one person who takes 5 times as long as everyone else to write something down because they are so precise, never. :laugh: I'm thinking of more...must stop...
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
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I did both of the "write a simple calculator" labs in one go, and he wouldn't mark the first lab until I had changed it back so it ONLY did the stuff that was required for the first lab. Note that the second lab only required adding functionality so all of the previous labs stuff was still there and working. I am almost paralysed by the stupidity of that. And he used to call the STUDENTS stupid. I'm not sure how he became and remained employed as a tutor. I think you're right in your comment. This is not an isolated experience, nor is it confined to such simple examples but can be applied more broadly. Two more examples - when I was 5 or 6 I was told off for reading the school journals (little books of reading materials for the kids) above my level and I had to read them in secret. One teacher at my intermediate school said she did not think I should be advanced a class "because my hand-writing was not good enough". Ha, who's laughing now, hmmm? Am I hand-writing anything? No. Typing. And when did you last see hand-writing you could actually read anyway? Apart from that one person who takes 5 times as long as everyone else to write something down because they are so precise, never. :laugh: I'm thinking of more...must stop...
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
standgale wrote:
Ha, who's laughing now, hmmm? Am I hand-writing anything? No.
:laugh: I've always had horrible handwriting, I guess I always knew I'd have no use for it in the future.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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I have had my best sucess with technical school graduates rather then university. Most of them at least understand the concept of reports with totals rather then a dozen different esoteric storage systems. Having interns also works even for smaller companies. You just have to gear the work required to their level and it gives you an opertunity to try them out to see how they work/think. The big thing is that they are all used to "passing" grades - if it works 75% it works. Most don't get that the client will only focus on what doesn't work, 99% is a passing grade. Look for people who are both logical and artistic you need both to be a good programmer. Lena
LenaBr wrote:
The big thing is that they are all used to "passing" grades - if it works 75% it works. Most don't get that the client will only focus on what doesn't work, 99% is a passing grade.
That is so true. The "But it works on my machine" excuse doesn't wash with users either when it doesn't work on their machine.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Hiring graduates is fine - subject to these rules Can they think a problem through and decompose it? (Shows process ability) Can they readily explain something(Anything)? (Shows communication ability) Can they summarize a tract of text? (Shows comprehension ability) Can they answer on 5 subjects concurrently? (shows executive function ability) Can they ask intelligent questions (Shows analytic ability) Of course, 90% of the people we deal with daily would fail. Now the rant - :mad: :mad: DAMMIT!!!! :mad: :mad: I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years - if the public only wants a $10 car then thats all the market will have available! If your company is ruled by the CFO then you're screwed - you'll never pay enough or be interesting enough for the few "talents" out there. Paying "entry" wages for grads just means they'll leave as fast as they can for a better job. However, if your company has a CEO who rules the roost and values old time concepts like fair pay for fair work then ... Relax your d**n requirements a little - consider and retrain some older programmers. They have the hard skills above (which Grads rarely have) and require less or equal training. They bring other things to the table too - Stability, experience and wisdom. They may cost a little more, but bring greater value than the increase. If this is unpalatable then just hire some indian/russian/chinese outsourcer, give them your IP and company future and be done with it. End of rant! Sorry - you hit a tender spot.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
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Hiring graduates is fine - subject to these rules Can they think a problem through and decompose it? (Shows process ability) Can they readily explain something(Anything)? (Shows communication ability) Can they summarize a tract of text? (Shows comprehension ability) Can they answer on 5 subjects concurrently? (shows executive function ability) Can they ask intelligent questions (Shows analytic ability) Of course, 90% of the people we deal with daily would fail. Now the rant - :mad: :mad: DAMMIT!!!! :mad: :mad: I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years - if the public only wants a $10 car then thats all the market will have available! If your company is ruled by the CFO then you're screwed - you'll never pay enough or be interesting enough for the few "talents" out there. Paying "entry" wages for grads just means they'll leave as fast as they can for a better job. However, if your company has a CEO who rules the roost and values old time concepts like fair pay for fair work then ... Relax your d**n requirements a little - consider and retrain some older programmers. They have the hard skills above (which Grads rarely have) and require less or equal training. They bring other things to the table too - Stability, experience and wisdom. They may cost a little more, but bring greater value than the increase. If this is unpalatable then just hire some indian/russian/chinese outsourcer, give them your IP and company future and be done with it. End of rant! Sorry - you hit a tender spot.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
Subsequent note: First, sorry about the outburst :sigh::sigh::sigh:. It was prompted by the fact that as an older developer/analyst and consultant I can relate to the difference between what a company wants and what it will offer. I recently took a position with a company that paid less than I could reasonably expect elsewhere. Normally I would not have considered it but two things made it an easy decision: 1- They REALLY treat their workers as people and assets not just lip service (tools to be discarded for newer cheaper foreign models) and accordingly offer substantial professional and personal opportunities and satisfaction. 2- They have an interesting environment revamping and refining the processes of software development in a SOA world. Being treated as an intelligent and interesting addition is wonderful, and being asked for advice and suggestions regarding process, workflows, tools, and documentation is incredibly complimentary and certainly engages my interest. You will need to offer one (or both) to entice the skilled people you want, and you'll still have to troll through the wannabe's and incompetents. PS: I'm enjoying work again for the first time in a loooonnnnnnngggggg while.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
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Hiring graduates is fine - subject to these rules Can they think a problem through and decompose it? (Shows process ability) Can they readily explain something(Anything)? (Shows communication ability) Can they summarize a tract of text? (Shows comprehension ability) Can they answer on 5 subjects concurrently? (shows executive function ability) Can they ask intelligent questions (Shows analytic ability) Of course, 90% of the people we deal with daily would fail. Now the rant - :mad: :mad: DAMMIT!!!! :mad: :mad: I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years - if the public only wants a $10 car then thats all the market will have available! If your company is ruled by the CFO then you're screwed - you'll never pay enough or be interesting enough for the few "talents" out there. Paying "entry" wages for grads just means they'll leave as fast as they can for a better job. However, if your company has a CEO who rules the roost and values old time concepts like fair pay for fair work then ... Relax your d**n requirements a little - consider and retrain some older programmers. They have the hard skills above (which Grads rarely have) and require less or equal training. They bring other things to the table too - Stability, experience and wisdom. They may cost a little more, but bring greater value than the increase. If this is unpalatable then just hire some indian/russian/chinese outsourcer, give them your IP and company future and be done with it. End of rant! Sorry - you hit a tender spot.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years
Just as well I'm not in the US.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
Relax your d**n requirements a little
Our requirements are quite relaxed. We expect the candidate to be able to write some code. They can't. End of. Some of these people that apparently have 10 years of experience, I could have run rings around when I was in high school. We don't ask for much, really we don't. We concentrate on what's in their CV rather than what we want. We tell them what is in store for them and what they will be required to learn, but if they can't show that they know the stuff on their CV then there isn't a lot I can do.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
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Subsequent note: First, sorry about the outburst :sigh::sigh::sigh:. It was prompted by the fact that as an older developer/analyst and consultant I can relate to the difference between what a company wants and what it will offer. I recently took a position with a company that paid less than I could reasonably expect elsewhere. Normally I would not have considered it but two things made it an easy decision: 1- They REALLY treat their workers as people and assets not just lip service (tools to be discarded for newer cheaper foreign models) and accordingly offer substantial professional and personal opportunities and satisfaction. 2- They have an interesting environment revamping and refining the processes of software development in a SOA world. Being treated as an intelligent and interesting addition is wonderful, and being asked for advice and suggestions regarding process, workflows, tools, and documentation is incredibly complimentary and certainly engages my interest. You will need to offer one (or both) to entice the skilled people you want, and you'll still have to troll through the wannabe's and incompetents. PS: I'm enjoying work again for the first time in a loooonnnnnnngggggg while.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
You will need to offer one (or both) to entice the skilled people you want
I hope we do offer those things. Within the development department at least we are all treated extremely well. We did recently make an offer to a guy and we took him out for drinks tonight (well the recruitment company did as they picked up the bar bill) and we talked shop for a good while about what we do, about technology in general, about the opportunities available (two of us run the west coast Scottish Developers[^] events). His comment, and I really hope we can live up to it, is "I think I'm going to really enjoy working here"
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
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LimeyRedneck wrote:
I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years
Just as well I'm not in the US.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
Relax your d**n requirements a little
Our requirements are quite relaxed. We expect the candidate to be able to write some code. They can't. End of. Some of these people that apparently have 10 years of experience, I could have run rings around when I was in high school. We don't ask for much, really we don't. We concentrate on what's in their CV rather than what we want. We tell them what is in store for them and what they will be required to learn, but if they can't show that they know the stuff on their CV then there isn't a lot I can do.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Our requirements are quite relaxed. We expect the candidate to be able to write some code. They can't. End of.
Point taken - and I appreciate the politeness you've shown in responding to my outburst.
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
... but if they can't show that they know the stuff on their CV then there isn't a lot I can do.
Unfortunately, I'm not surprised that a "bloated" CV is so prevalent. I wish that in light of your subsequent comments I could offer any real help, but I cannot. My own experiences are to avoid college graduates like the plague due to their being almost impossible to teach properly after the college experience. I have had pleasant experiences mentoring/teaching high-school teenagers (Great Kids!) through the FIRST program but again, I suspect that does not help. My only suggestion (effectively useless) is to use my original questions to filter out some of the responders and leave an easier task in finding the "diamonds in the rough".
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
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LimeyRedneck wrote:
I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years
Just as well I'm not in the US.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
Relax your d**n requirements a little
Our requirements are quite relaxed. We expect the candidate to be able to write some code. They can't. End of. Some of these people that apparently have 10 years of experience, I could have run rings around when I was in high school. We don't ask for much, really we don't. We concentrate on what's in their CV rather than what we want. We tell them what is in store for them and what they will be required to learn, but if they can't show that they know the stuff on their CV then there isn't a lot I can do.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Actually durring a job interview anyone can run rings around me. There is something about that atmosphere that dumbs most people down to illiterate pre humans who can just about squeak and grunt. I have to agree about the older programmers however. No-one was willing to look at 25 years of experience at coding in older languages when I was looking. I had to get a loan and go back to school to get the new c# and then I got "but you don't have 5 years in c#" After 6 months I now code circles around the fresh graduates because I can design code and systems and see the consquences, because they got me for free for an internship I was able to show what I could do. Lena
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oh well - all depends I suppose. I have found and heard a few cases where people are too busy talking about the way they do things and the things they have done, rather than doing things to fit in with the way everyone else does things. And they want to continue doing it their way, regardless. Whereas a graduate doesn't even have a way to do things yet, so you can give them one :) Plus, the people I know were more terrified when they got their first programming job than thinking they know everything. Some great people I knew at uni probably WOULD have a problem with customers and timeframes because they just program all the time and creatively and they really DO know a massive amount - and you can't let anything, like eating, or customers, get in the way of programming the thing, whatever the thing is. True hackers. Of course, if you can control them and get them to work on their work, then they will be brilliant and you'll get a lot of random extra contribution besides.
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
Interesting thread as with in a year or so I will be that "Graduate" looking for a job. Lot of good info here and I understand where a many of you are coming from as I've used some of the same tatic's with new people to my shop. I currently am the Asst-Manager of a 22 man Telephone shop for the Air Force. Going to be interesting going from knowing what I'm doing to only thinking I know what I'm doing. :)
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*Waves moronically* I say I'm a student, because I'm about to hit a Computer Games Design course (with 2 directions: Design or Coding, and I'm taking the Coding). As of yet I've not started and I can tell you; the way I code is far different from anything I've looked at that was done professionally. One difference is that people like me are more about the functionality - get it working. Once you're told to do other things you get caught up trying to make code readable and extensible and any other fancy-sounding adjective just to make it "better" (or not). Much agreed on the idea of hiring Undergraduates. Oh, and if you want your first applicant? ;P
Ninja (the Nerd)
Confused? You will be...I'm in a Game and Simulation Programming course right now and so far I have taken 12 classes 2 of witch had to do with coding and 2 of witch had to do with Game Design. The coding classes were an introduction and OOP both in C# our next coding class will change over to C++. I though the coding classes were a joke but apparently a lot of people in my classes have struggled. I have worked hard to maintain a 4.0 though I'm not sure how valued it will be by employers. In defense of the program I am taking, only 10 of my remaining classes are not Math/Programming related and 4 of the 12 classes I have taken were math. Either way I have learned a lot from my course of study and do realize that they teach you ideally this is the way it works. Having worked in the real world for 12 years now, I can say ONCE out of a thousand or so jobs was any job I have ever done ideal. Btw, thanks to all who have posted about what I should expect as a graduate.