Hiring Graduates
-
I have had my best sucess with technical school graduates rather then university. Most of them at least understand the concept of reports with totals rather then a dozen different esoteric storage systems. Having interns also works even for smaller companies. You just have to gear the work required to their level and it gives you an opertunity to try them out to see how they work/think. The big thing is that they are all used to "passing" grades - if it works 75% it works. Most don't get that the client will only focus on what doesn't work, 99% is a passing grade. Look for people who are both logical and artistic you need both to be a good programmer. Lena
LenaBr wrote:
The big thing is that they are all used to "passing" grades - if it works 75% it works. Most don't get that the client will only focus on what doesn't work, 99% is a passing grade.
That is so true. The "But it works on my machine" excuse doesn't wash with users either when it doesn't work on their machine.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
-
The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Hiring graduates is fine - subject to these rules Can they think a problem through and decompose it? (Shows process ability) Can they readily explain something(Anything)? (Shows communication ability) Can they summarize a tract of text? (Shows comprehension ability) Can they answer on 5 subjects concurrently? (shows executive function ability) Can they ask intelligent questions (Shows analytic ability) Of course, 90% of the people we deal with daily would fail. Now the rant - :mad: :mad: DAMMIT!!!! :mad: :mad: I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years - if the public only wants a $10 car then thats all the market will have available! If your company is ruled by the CFO then you're screwed - you'll never pay enough or be interesting enough for the few "talents" out there. Paying "entry" wages for grads just means they'll leave as fast as they can for a better job. However, if your company has a CEO who rules the roost and values old time concepts like fair pay for fair work then ... Relax your d**n requirements a little - consider and retrain some older programmers. They have the hard skills above (which Grads rarely have) and require less or equal training. They bring other things to the table too - Stability, experience and wisdom. They may cost a little more, but bring greater value than the increase. If this is unpalatable then just hire some indian/russian/chinese outsourcer, give them your IP and company future and be done with it. End of rant! Sorry - you hit a tender spot.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
-
Hiring graduates is fine - subject to these rules Can they think a problem through and decompose it? (Shows process ability) Can they readily explain something(Anything)? (Shows communication ability) Can they summarize a tract of text? (Shows comprehension ability) Can they answer on 5 subjects concurrently? (shows executive function ability) Can they ask intelligent questions (Shows analytic ability) Of course, 90% of the people we deal with daily would fail. Now the rant - :mad: :mad: DAMMIT!!!! :mad: :mad: I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years - if the public only wants a $10 car then thats all the market will have available! If your company is ruled by the CFO then you're screwed - you'll never pay enough or be interesting enough for the few "talents" out there. Paying "entry" wages for grads just means they'll leave as fast as they can for a better job. However, if your company has a CEO who rules the roost and values old time concepts like fair pay for fair work then ... Relax your d**n requirements a little - consider and retrain some older programmers. They have the hard skills above (which Grads rarely have) and require less or equal training. They bring other things to the table too - Stability, experience and wisdom. They may cost a little more, but bring greater value than the increase. If this is unpalatable then just hire some indian/russian/chinese outsourcer, give them your IP and company future and be done with it. End of rant! Sorry - you hit a tender spot.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
Subsequent note: First, sorry about the outburst :sigh::sigh::sigh:. It was prompted by the fact that as an older developer/analyst and consultant I can relate to the difference between what a company wants and what it will offer. I recently took a position with a company that paid less than I could reasonably expect elsewhere. Normally I would not have considered it but two things made it an easy decision: 1- They REALLY treat their workers as people and assets not just lip service (tools to be discarded for newer cheaper foreign models) and accordingly offer substantial professional and personal opportunities and satisfaction. 2- They have an interesting environment revamping and refining the processes of software development in a SOA world. Being treated as an intelligent and interesting addition is wonderful, and being asked for advice and suggestions regarding process, workflows, tools, and documentation is incredibly complimentary and certainly engages my interest. You will need to offer one (or both) to entice the skilled people you want, and you'll still have to troll through the wannabe's and incompetents. PS: I'm enjoying work again for the first time in a loooonnnnnnngggggg while.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
-
Hiring graduates is fine - subject to these rules Can they think a problem through and decompose it? (Shows process ability) Can they readily explain something(Anything)? (Shows communication ability) Can they summarize a tract of text? (Shows comprehension ability) Can they answer on 5 subjects concurrently? (shows executive function ability) Can they ask intelligent questions (Shows analytic ability) Of course, 90% of the people we deal with daily would fail. Now the rant - :mad: :mad: DAMMIT!!!! :mad: :mad: I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years - if the public only wants a $10 car then thats all the market will have available! If your company is ruled by the CFO then you're screwed - you'll never pay enough or be interesting enough for the few "talents" out there. Paying "entry" wages for grads just means they'll leave as fast as they can for a better job. However, if your company has a CEO who rules the roost and values old time concepts like fair pay for fair work then ... Relax your d**n requirements a little - consider and retrain some older programmers. They have the hard skills above (which Grads rarely have) and require less or equal training. They bring other things to the table too - Stability, experience and wisdom. They may cost a little more, but bring greater value than the increase. If this is unpalatable then just hire some indian/russian/chinese outsourcer, give them your IP and company future and be done with it. End of rant! Sorry - you hit a tender spot.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years
Just as well I'm not in the US.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
Relax your d**n requirements a little
Our requirements are quite relaxed. We expect the candidate to be able to write some code. They can't. End of. Some of these people that apparently have 10 years of experience, I could have run rings around when I was in high school. We don't ask for much, really we don't. We concentrate on what's in their CV rather than what we want. We tell them what is in store for them and what they will be required to learn, but if they can't show that they know the stuff on their CV then there isn't a lot I can do.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
-
Subsequent note: First, sorry about the outburst :sigh::sigh::sigh:. It was prompted by the fact that as an older developer/analyst and consultant I can relate to the difference between what a company wants and what it will offer. I recently took a position with a company that paid less than I could reasonably expect elsewhere. Normally I would not have considered it but two things made it an easy decision: 1- They REALLY treat their workers as people and assets not just lip service (tools to be discarded for newer cheaper foreign models) and accordingly offer substantial professional and personal opportunities and satisfaction. 2- They have an interesting environment revamping and refining the processes of software development in a SOA world. Being treated as an intelligent and interesting addition is wonderful, and being asked for advice and suggestions regarding process, workflows, tools, and documentation is incredibly complimentary and certainly engages my interest. You will need to offer one (or both) to entice the skilled people you want, and you'll still have to troll through the wannabe's and incompetents. PS: I'm enjoying work again for the first time in a loooonnnnnnngggggg while.
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
You will need to offer one (or both) to entice the skilled people you want
I hope we do offer those things. Within the development department at least we are all treated extremely well. We did recently make an offer to a guy and we took him out for drinks tonight (well the recruitment company did as they picked up the bar bill) and we talked shop for a good while about what we do, about technology in general, about the opportunities available (two of us run the west coast Scottish Developers[^] events). His comment, and I really hope we can live up to it, is "I think I'm going to really enjoy working here"
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
-
LimeyRedneck wrote:
I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years
Just as well I'm not in the US.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
Relax your d**n requirements a little
Our requirements are quite relaxed. We expect the candidate to be able to write some code. They can't. End of. Some of these people that apparently have 10 years of experience, I could have run rings around when I was in high school. We don't ask for much, really we don't. We concentrate on what's in their CV rather than what we want. We tell them what is in store for them and what they will be required to learn, but if they can't show that they know the stuff on their CV then there isn't a lot I can do.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Our requirements are quite relaxed. We expect the candidate to be able to write some code. They can't. End of.
Point taken - and I appreciate the politeness you've shown in responding to my outburst.
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
... but if they can't show that they know the stuff on their CV then there isn't a lot I can do.
Unfortunately, I'm not surprised that a "bloated" CV is so prevalent. I wish that in light of your subsequent comments I could offer any real help, but I cannot. My own experiences are to avoid college graduates like the plague due to their being almost impossible to teach properly after the college experience. I have had pleasant experiences mentoring/teaching high-school teenagers (Great Kids!) through the FIRST program but again, I suspect that does not help. My only suggestion (effectively useless) is to use my original questions to filter out some of the responders and leave an easier task in finding the "diamonds in the rough".
Nothing is impossible, we just don't know the way of it yet.
-
LimeyRedneck wrote:
I am fed up with this "can't find" whining - US Businesses did this to themselves by refusing to pay a fair wage for fair value for the last 20 years
Just as well I'm not in the US.
LimeyRedneck wrote:
Relax your d**n requirements a little
Our requirements are quite relaxed. We expect the candidate to be able to write some code. They can't. End of. Some of these people that apparently have 10 years of experience, I could have run rings around when I was in high school. We don't ask for much, really we don't. We concentrate on what's in their CV rather than what we want. We tell them what is in store for them and what they will be required to learn, but if they can't show that they know the stuff on their CV then there isn't a lot I can do.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Actually durring a job interview anyone can run rings around me. There is something about that atmosphere that dumbs most people down to illiterate pre humans who can just about squeak and grunt. I have to agree about the older programmers however. No-one was willing to look at 25 years of experience at coding in older languages when I was looking. I had to get a loan and go back to school to get the new c# and then I got "but you don't have 5 years in c#" After 6 months I now code circles around the fresh graduates because I can design code and systems and see the consquences, because they got me for free for an internship I was able to show what I could do. Lena
-
oh well - all depends I suppose. I have found and heard a few cases where people are too busy talking about the way they do things and the things they have done, rather than doing things to fit in with the way everyone else does things. And they want to continue doing it their way, regardless. Whereas a graduate doesn't even have a way to do things yet, so you can give them one :) Plus, the people I know were more terrified when they got their first programming job than thinking they know everything. Some great people I knew at uni probably WOULD have a problem with customers and timeframes because they just program all the time and creatively and they really DO know a massive amount - and you can't let anything, like eating, or customers, get in the way of programming the thing, whatever the thing is. True hackers. Of course, if you can control them and get them to work on their work, then they will be brilliant and you'll get a lot of random extra contribution besides.
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
Interesting thread as with in a year or so I will be that "Graduate" looking for a job. Lot of good info here and I understand where a many of you are coming from as I've used some of the same tatic's with new people to my shop. I currently am the Asst-Manager of a 22 man Telephone shop for the Air Force. Going to be interesting going from knowing what I'm doing to only thinking I know what I'm doing. :)
-
*Waves moronically* I say I'm a student, because I'm about to hit a Computer Games Design course (with 2 directions: Design or Coding, and I'm taking the Coding). As of yet I've not started and I can tell you; the way I code is far different from anything I've looked at that was done professionally. One difference is that people like me are more about the functionality - get it working. Once you're told to do other things you get caught up trying to make code readable and extensible and any other fancy-sounding adjective just to make it "better" (or not). Much agreed on the idea of hiring Undergraduates. Oh, and if you want your first applicant? ;P
Ninja (the Nerd)
Confused? You will be...I'm in a Game and Simulation Programming course right now and so far I have taken 12 classes 2 of witch had to do with coding and 2 of witch had to do with Game Design. The coding classes were an introduction and OOP both in C# our next coding class will change over to C++. I though the coding classes were a joke but apparently a lot of people in my classes have struggled. I have worked hard to maintain a 4.0 though I'm not sure how valued it will be by employers. In defense of the program I am taking, only 10 of my remaining classes are not Math/Programming related and 4 of the 12 classes I have taken were math. Either way I have learned a lot from my course of study and do realize that they teach you ideally this is the way it works. Having worked in the real world for 12 years now, I can say ONCE out of a thousand or so jobs was any job I have ever done ideal. Btw, thanks to all who have posted about what I should expect as a graduate.
-
:-D I was hired as a graduate for a really big IT company in SA as part of their intership programme. the pay was real crap but i figured that the experience was what counted the most...it was a really good experience, i learned alot but didnt stay long. I found a company that paid me better and didnt stump my growth as a person.I reckon its a great way for recruitment of graduates cos youre training the graduates according to your policies and standards and it would be easier for the company in the long haul...but the problem is that if you don t pay well enough and keep them there, theyre going to look elsewhere and they will move because they are young and they have their new found experience...its a gamble, but it depends how look at it.. sharonaM
My BS computer science degree at Rochester Institute of Technology (basically a University with about 15 colleges) required 4 quarters of work experience (1 year of work). It turned a 4 year program into 5 years but was well worth it because you get your first quarter of experiece sometime during your second year of school. By the time you have graduated you have experience and possibly opportunities in 1-4 companies..
"have you kissed your local propeller head today?"