Bored with Tech [modified]
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Sure there is - a paycheck
There's far more to life than a paycheque. Do what you love to do with enthusiasm and enjoyment and money almost inevitably follows.
"I made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter." — Blaise Pascal
But do not make the "build it and they will come" mistake. It is vital to connect what you do with enthusiasm with those who are willing to give you money. I have worked for a number of outfits with outstanding technology that died painfully because they thought the technology by itself would be enough, and failed to do intelligent marketing. That isn't to say that marketing is just throwing money into websites and advertising. It is really a function of the dispassionate observation of the environment you're in, combined with highly creative ways to help people understand how you can help them. My wife is a piano technician and is building an increasingly successful piano business by doing this. In short, passion -> money only if the passion goes into both what you do and how you market it.
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Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently? In the last year or so I've gotten really bored with it, it seems that much of what's considered "new" in the last 5-8 years is just rehashed stuff, and it's become really hard to work up much enthusiasm to spend extra time on it. When I started back in 1995, the industry, or at least the little that I was aware of, seemed much more dynamic. Now it just feels stagnant, and most of the things that I do find myself interested in seem like dead end technology. Many of the things that have become popular, like web "programming", just make me cringe. Part of this, I think, is that having gone through the process of learning multiple frameworks, multiple languages on multiple operating systems, using a variety of different toolchains, it all starts to become just "more of the same". So there's not that much "new" to learn in something like WPF, for example. It's just more of the same thing, with a few twists here and there, but it's not that much of a stretch anymore. Another issue is the way it's reported on in both the general media (say a magazine like Time) or even in tech specialist sites (excluding CP of course!). The willingness of any of these places to ask even the simplest of questions regarding "new" or "innovative" technology is nothing short of astonishing. Stuff I've seen reporting on is done in such an incredibly shallow, and frequently incorrect, manner that it's just depressing in the extreme. Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
modified on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:58 AM
Jim Crafton wrote:
Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
That's definitely where I'm at. I am though challenging myself to learn F# by programming a Texas Hold'em game, with some good algorithms for the 'bot players. Other than that, what interests me is the problems that need solving, not the technologies that solve them. In fact, a lot of the time, I seem to be fighting the technology to solve the problem, such as my recent run-in with getting some C++/STL code to work with multiple processors and dealing with the fact that Microsoft's core memory management stuff is NOT thread friendly. That pisses me off, when some tool that a professional company (supposedly) has written fails to do its job, and I end up having to work around the crap, distracting me from what I really want to get done. One other thing--to this day, I have never seen a technology actually improve the software development process, with the exception of my Interacx suite. Call me biased. ;) Marc
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Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently? In the last year or so I've gotten really bored with it, it seems that much of what's considered "new" in the last 5-8 years is just rehashed stuff, and it's become really hard to work up much enthusiasm to spend extra time on it. When I started back in 1995, the industry, or at least the little that I was aware of, seemed much more dynamic. Now it just feels stagnant, and most of the things that I do find myself interested in seem like dead end technology. Many of the things that have become popular, like web "programming", just make me cringe. Part of this, I think, is that having gone through the process of learning multiple frameworks, multiple languages on multiple operating systems, using a variety of different toolchains, it all starts to become just "more of the same". So there's not that much "new" to learn in something like WPF, for example. It's just more of the same thing, with a few twists here and there, but it's not that much of a stretch anymore. Another issue is the way it's reported on in both the general media (say a magazine like Time) or even in tech specialist sites (excluding CP of course!). The willingness of any of these places to ask even the simplest of questions regarding "new" or "innovative" technology is nothing short of astonishing. Stuff I've seen reporting on is done in such an incredibly shallow, and frequently incorrect, manner that it's just depressing in the extreme. Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
modified on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:58 AM
Part of the problem is that you become trapped by the amount of money programming pays. However, if your passion continues to diminish, you won't enjoy life no matter how much you make. Programming is the new factory work. This trend will only grow stronger. My advice would be to explore other aspects of life and see if there are things that might be as fun today as programming was when you first got into the game. From that list, look for the ones with the potential to maintain the lifestyle that you currently enjoy. If you can find it, then do what many of us did - build the skills for the new career in your spare time while paying the bills with your current gig. It's a period of intense work, but the ability to transition to more fulfilling life makes it all worthwhile.
Christopher Duncan www.PracticalUSA.com Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Copywriting Services
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Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently? In the last year or so I've gotten really bored with it, it seems that much of what's considered "new" in the last 5-8 years is just rehashed stuff, and it's become really hard to work up much enthusiasm to spend extra time on it. When I started back in 1995, the industry, or at least the little that I was aware of, seemed much more dynamic. Now it just feels stagnant, and most of the things that I do find myself interested in seem like dead end technology. Many of the things that have become popular, like web "programming", just make me cringe. Part of this, I think, is that having gone through the process of learning multiple frameworks, multiple languages on multiple operating systems, using a variety of different toolchains, it all starts to become just "more of the same". So there's not that much "new" to learn in something like WPF, for example. It's just more of the same thing, with a few twists here and there, but it's not that much of a stretch anymore. Another issue is the way it's reported on in both the general media (say a magazine like Time) or even in tech specialist sites (excluding CP of course!). The willingness of any of these places to ask even the simplest of questions regarding "new" or "innovative" technology is nothing short of astonishing. Stuff I've seen reporting on is done in such an incredibly shallow, and frequently incorrect, manner that it's just depressing in the extreme. Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
modified on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:58 AM
I am as enthusiastic about writing code as I have ever been, and I've been a professional developer for 20 years now. I've recently started getting into IP Telephony and am writing some cool applications that our customers our lapping up.
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While I'm not a fan of Kevin Costner movies, I am a fan of Alan Rickman and Morgan Freeman who were both in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. That movie had the following bit of dialog: Sherriff of Notthingham (Rickman): "I'm going cut his heart out with a spoon!" Guy of Gisbourne: "Why a spoon, cousin?" Sherriff: "Because it hurts more, you twit!"
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary Wheeler wrote:
cut his heart out
Ha! Yeah but starting with the heart would be over too quick..... Cut their tongue out with a spoon first because the constant screaming would get on my nerves after a while.... :-)
Why is common sense not common? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert. Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy Individuality is fine, as long as we do it together - F. Burns Help humanity, join the CodeProject grid computing team here
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Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently? In the last year or so I've gotten really bored with it, it seems that much of what's considered "new" in the last 5-8 years is just rehashed stuff, and it's become really hard to work up much enthusiasm to spend extra time on it. When I started back in 1995, the industry, or at least the little that I was aware of, seemed much more dynamic. Now it just feels stagnant, and most of the things that I do find myself interested in seem like dead end technology. Many of the things that have become popular, like web "programming", just make me cringe. Part of this, I think, is that having gone through the process of learning multiple frameworks, multiple languages on multiple operating systems, using a variety of different toolchains, it all starts to become just "more of the same". So there's not that much "new" to learn in something like WPF, for example. It's just more of the same thing, with a few twists here and there, but it's not that much of a stretch anymore. Another issue is the way it's reported on in both the general media (say a magazine like Time) or even in tech specialist sites (excluding CP of course!). The willingness of any of these places to ask even the simplest of questions regarding "new" or "innovative" technology is nothing short of astonishing. Stuff I've seen reporting on is done in such an incredibly shallow, and frequently incorrect, manner that it's just depressing in the extreme. Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
modified on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:58 AM
Jim Crafton wrote:
If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
Learning something new and simple. I like creating neat, fun stuff. I don't like battling APIs. Try working in a technology that doesn't actually allow you to do a lot and you find yourself spending more time enjoying the challenge of coding instead of the challenge of battling through 8000 classes
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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peterchen wrote:
In the Naughties, our toolchains got longer
I'm sorry, I just can't read that with a straight face... :laugh:
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
All thanks to the little blue pill (or is it purple, I never can remember...) :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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Jim Crafton wrote:
If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
Learning something new and simple. I like creating neat, fun stuff. I don't like battling APIs. Try working in a technology that doesn't actually allow you to do a lot and you find yourself spending more time enjoying the challenge of coding instead of the challenge of battling through 8000 classes
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
and simple
Yeah that's where I tend to have a wee bit of a problem :) I tend to like the really complex problems :) Writing a little notepad app has never interested me, instead I want to leap into writing a complex IDE with a syntax highlighting, multi-threaded AST code parser. Sigh. Must think smaller...
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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yes. i think it's called "burnout". one way to get over the hump is to find yourself in the position of being unemployable unless you jump in and learn all these 'new' ways of doing the same old thing.
Have you had any luck yet? I take it you're still looking for work?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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Have you had any luck yet? I take it you're still looking for work?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
plenty of phone interviews, a few face-to-face interviews. but no, no luck. everyone wants a C# expert, and it's all about technical interviews. i can't count how many times i've had to explain the difference between 'string' and 'StringBuilder', and inner and out joins. i think i know the stuff, and i rarely get totally beat down by technical questions in these interviews. so i don't know why i'm not getting offers, but ... i'm not.
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plenty of phone interviews, a few face-to-face interviews. but no, no luck. everyone wants a C# expert, and it's all about technical interviews. i can't count how many times i've had to explain the difference between 'string' and 'StringBuilder', and inner and out joins. i think i know the stuff, and i rarely get totally beat down by technical questions in these interviews. so i don't know why i'm not getting offers, but ... i'm not.
At the risk of sounding cynical (shocking, I know) I'd guess they are wanting to hire cheap, and your experience is indicating a higher salary than they want to pay. Which sucks. Well I hope your luck changes soon, I'm sure something will turn up. Also, have you considered becoming a male escort? I hear that pays well. There's a bunch of wealthy ladies here in NYC who'd pay top dollar for that kind of thing... :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
That's definitely where I'm at. I am though challenging myself to learn F# by programming a Texas Hold'em game, with some good algorithms for the 'bot players. Other than that, what interests me is the problems that need solving, not the technologies that solve them. In fact, a lot of the time, I seem to be fighting the technology to solve the problem, such as my recent run-in with getting some C++/STL code to work with multiple processors and dealing with the fact that Microsoft's core memory management stuff is NOT thread friendly. That pisses me off, when some tool that a professional company (supposedly) has written fails to do its job, and I end up having to work around the crap, distracting me from what I really want to get done. One other thing--to this day, I have never seen a technology actually improve the software development process, with the exception of my Interacx suite. Call me biased. ;) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
One other thing--to this day, I have never seen a technology actually improve the software development process, with the exception of my Interacx suite. Call me biased. Wink
That's just cause you've never used the VCF :) You're still stuck with the whole pansy C# stuff.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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At the risk of sounding cynical (shocking, I know) I'd guess they are wanting to hire cheap, and your experience is indicating a higher salary than they want to pay. Which sucks. Well I hope your luck changes soon, I'm sure something will turn up. Also, have you considered becoming a male escort? I hear that pays well. There's a bunch of wealthy ladies here in NYC who'd pay top dollar for that kind of thing... :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
Jim Crafton wrote:
I'd guess they are wanting to hire cheap, and your experience is indicating a higher salary than they want to pay. Which sucks.
i have no doubt that's a factor. but i don't know how to convince them that i'm willing to work for much less than my years would dictate, as long as it's a decent job.
Jim Crafton wrote:
Also, have you considered becoming a male escort? I hear that pays well.
i'll look into it. but i'm not willing to relocate.
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Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently? In the last year or so I've gotten really bored with it, it seems that much of what's considered "new" in the last 5-8 years is just rehashed stuff, and it's become really hard to work up much enthusiasm to spend extra time on it. When I started back in 1995, the industry, or at least the little that I was aware of, seemed much more dynamic. Now it just feels stagnant, and most of the things that I do find myself interested in seem like dead end technology. Many of the things that have become popular, like web "programming", just make me cringe. Part of this, I think, is that having gone through the process of learning multiple frameworks, multiple languages on multiple operating systems, using a variety of different toolchains, it all starts to become just "more of the same". So there's not that much "new" to learn in something like WPF, for example. It's just more of the same thing, with a few twists here and there, but it's not that much of a stretch anymore. Another issue is the way it's reported on in both the general media (say a magazine like Time) or even in tech specialist sites (excluding CP of course!). The willingness of any of these places to ask even the simplest of questions regarding "new" or "innovative" technology is nothing short of astonishing. Stuff I've seen reporting on is done in such an incredibly shallow, and frequently incorrect, manner that it's just depressing in the extreme. Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
modified on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:58 AM
I got bored with it years ago, but it's the only thing I know how to do well that pays decently and consistently, so I keep doing it. Only 13 more years till retirement. Or 15. Or 18. Or 20. Depends on all those investments, er, gambles turn out.
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Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently? In the last year or so I've gotten really bored with it, it seems that much of what's considered "new" in the last 5-8 years is just rehashed stuff, and it's become really hard to work up much enthusiasm to spend extra time on it. When I started back in 1995, the industry, or at least the little that I was aware of, seemed much more dynamic. Now it just feels stagnant, and most of the things that I do find myself interested in seem like dead end technology. Many of the things that have become popular, like web "programming", just make me cringe. Part of this, I think, is that having gone through the process of learning multiple frameworks, multiple languages on multiple operating systems, using a variety of different toolchains, it all starts to become just "more of the same". So there's not that much "new" to learn in something like WPF, for example. It's just more of the same thing, with a few twists here and there, but it's not that much of a stretch anymore. Another issue is the way it's reported on in both the general media (say a magazine like Time) or even in tech specialist sites (excluding CP of course!). The willingness of any of these places to ask even the simplest of questions regarding "new" or "innovative" technology is nothing short of astonishing. Stuff I've seen reporting on is done in such an incredibly shallow, and frequently incorrect, manner that it's just depressing in the extreme. Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
modified on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:58 AM
I enjoy programming. Not learning a new API that does slightly more than something i wrote in C 16 years ago while imposing 10x the memory and CPU load. And definitely not business of software, which is what seems to pass for at least half of the tech reporting out there. I enjoy writing code to solve problems. What gets me out of a slump is going back to what got me interested in this in the first place: small languages or APIs, small solutions that can then be re-used in larger ones. Putting myself in a position where I can write without constantly referring to MSDN. It's amazing how good it feels to write a bit of code to do something, and then find an example solution online that's fragile, longer, and depends on some external library for most of what's not boilerplate... It's the sort of thing that makes me want to keep going. :)
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Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently? In the last year or so I've gotten really bored with it, it seems that much of what's considered "new" in the last 5-8 years is just rehashed stuff, and it's become really hard to work up much enthusiasm to spend extra time on it. When I started back in 1995, the industry, or at least the little that I was aware of, seemed much more dynamic. Now it just feels stagnant, and most of the things that I do find myself interested in seem like dead end technology. Many of the things that have become popular, like web "programming", just make me cringe. Part of this, I think, is that having gone through the process of learning multiple frameworks, multiple languages on multiple operating systems, using a variety of different toolchains, it all starts to become just "more of the same". So there's not that much "new" to learn in something like WPF, for example. It's just more of the same thing, with a few twists here and there, but it's not that much of a stretch anymore. Another issue is the way it's reported on in both the general media (say a magazine like Time) or even in tech specialist sites (excluding CP of course!). The willingness of any of these places to ask even the simplest of questions regarding "new" or "innovative" technology is nothing short of astonishing. Stuff I've seen reporting on is done in such an incredibly shallow, and frequently incorrect, manner that it's just depressing in the extreme. Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
modified on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:58 AM
Jim Crafton wrote:
Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently?
Yes. I only started in 2004, and got bored around 2007.
Jim Crafton wrote:
what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
I'm moving into a BA role.
Cheers, Vikram. (Got my troika of CCCs!)
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Joe Simes wrote:
"Follow your bliss." – Joseph Campbell
That would lead me to Salma Hayak, and I don't think the restraining order has been removed! Oh help me Obi Wan! You're my only hope!
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
I've forwarded this to your wife. Just helping whatever little I can. ;) Btw, it's Hayek (yeah, ask me) and not Hayak. :)
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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Seems like when a new platform comes out all of the "apps" or development takes a step back 3 years. Back in the early 90's I was a cd rom developer. Mostly CBT (Authorware) and educational software for kids/schools (Director). Lots of animation and problems solving. Low level crap like print drivers and text to speech stuff. It was fun. Then there was the internet, cd rom dev dried up and everyone wanted a web page. So now I am a glorified text formatter a pasteup artist. :doh: Then Shockwave emerged and the Director stuff came back but with limitations due to the browser sandbox. So now I am redoing all of the crap I did for all of the school software as mini Schlockwave modules. Learning Perl so I can save data to a database on the web server. :omg: Then I get tasked to learn ColdFusion and I am now a text formatter again storing crap in databases (MS Access, SQL Server, Oracle). Then Flash came out and I am redoing the Schlockwave games but using CF to jam the data (high scores) into an Oracle database instead of using Perl to write it to a flat file. :wtf: I hate Flash so now I am a ColdFusion/Oracle developer writing document tracking software in an industrial facility (the Navy :^) ) and I have just been tasked to "learn" Sharepoint so it can track the damn spreadsheets instead of my CF app. X| I want to open a BBQ restaurant with a nice little stage for live hillbilly music! :suss:
Open the BBQ restaurant. It will be fun and give you a break from programming.
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Programming is just the tool. Find a field of interest where the majority of your learning is related to the field and not the programming tech. Games, medical imaging, movie animation, robotics, astronomy, physics, etc. Jumping in to the latest Microsoft fad is a sure way to get frustrated and burned out.
Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote:
Programming is just the tool.
Amen. You just got my 5. <nitpickBecauseThisIsAnImportantSubject> I'd replace "Find a field of interest where the majority of your learning is related to the field and not the programming tech." by "Be an expert user of the tools, but apply them to a field in which you have both passion and expertees." That means 1) becoming an empassioned expert in the problem domain before learning the tools, and 2) not changing tools unless there's a really good reason to do so. </nitpickBecauseThisIsAnImportantSubject> My passion has always been written music. Best, James
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Has anyone else gotten really disillusioned with programming recently? In the last year or so I've gotten really bored with it, it seems that much of what's considered "new" in the last 5-8 years is just rehashed stuff, and it's become really hard to work up much enthusiasm to spend extra time on it. When I started back in 1995, the industry, or at least the little that I was aware of, seemed much more dynamic. Now it just feels stagnant, and most of the things that I do find myself interested in seem like dead end technology. Many of the things that have become popular, like web "programming", just make me cringe. Part of this, I think, is that having gone through the process of learning multiple frameworks, multiple languages on multiple operating systems, using a variety of different toolchains, it all starts to become just "more of the same". So there's not that much "new" to learn in something like WPF, for example. It's just more of the same thing, with a few twists here and there, but it's not that much of a stretch anymore. Another issue is the way it's reported on in both the general media (say a magazine like Time) or even in tech specialist sites (excluding CP of course!). The willingness of any of these places to ask even the simplest of questions regarding "new" or "innovative" technology is nothing short of astonishing. Stuff I've seen reporting on is done in such an incredibly shallow, and frequently incorrect, manner that it's just depressing in the extreme. Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
modified on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:58 AM
Jim Crafton wrote:
Has anyone else run into this? If so, what got you over the "hump", so to speak?
Buy yourself and old Land Rover and rather than spending your free time programming or on the computer rebuild it. The worse condition it is the better, bought my base vehicle for £80 and taken a few years but it's on the road now (although still not quite finished). Might be more difficult to rebuild in the states but here in Britain the parts are dirt cheap. Just had to put a new alternator in (well was easier than repairing the old one) and was £30 and an hours work. BTW, I had no mechanical knowledge before I started this project so doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. Will post some piccys if I can find them.
I doubt it. If it isn't intuitive then we need to fix it. - Chris Maunder