,NET to PHP
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
As much as I can admire you for trying to compare these: go with what the client wants, it'll be good for you. PHP is able to be run on any OS which has a server written for it and more importantly, the language implementation is free (this could be, through and through, why the client wants use of the language..). MySQL is, again, able to be run on any OS (again, a good choice on their part if they want the code to be run-able on any server they decide to use). ASP.net is primarily class-based, while PHP is the JoaT here in that it has both OOP and Functional Programming models as default ways to go about things. MSSQL can be good at some things, but in my experience, it's expensive and slow in comparison to MySQL when using MySQL's InnoDB storage engine. As previous posters have said, they've each got their ups and downs, therefore neither is better. I uses PHP by preference as I can get more done faster. For an IDE (of sorts), I use PHP.net's documentation and NotePad++ (http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/) plus the editor has a built-in help mechanism to do lookups on PHP.net by a key-combination (Alt + F1). Hope you can see where I'm coming from with this as it's not a crime to use free languages and free software, but (imho) it is a crime to get stuck down to just one language pair (ASP.net/MSSQL) just because you cannot see the merits of a different language pair (PHP/MySQL) and accept when a client wants to use them ;).
The worst thing about the darkness is the light at the end - DX-MON
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Certainly the Jack of all Trades is a good argument but the issue also remains that , especially in IT, technologies come and go and putting yourself in a niche only is shortsighted. Generally people do focus down to a specific technology to become experts in that field but my main point is that the main tool that you use, is yourself and not the technologies that you implement. I enjoy c# as a language and code mainly ASP web pages, however I have good database knowledge and it shocks me at times with the lack of understanding about database that a lot of developers have. Also generally only large corporates can afford a highly specialized developer and that restricts your job opportunities , depending on your local situation. In my region there is a growing demand by SME's for developers that while focused in a particular field, have the versatility to branch if needed by the company. Like everything in life, the best a developer can do is listen to the market, the trends that are happening around them, locally and abroad, and do what they think is best. Sometimes you burn but that is life's lessons and can only be learnt by experiencing it.
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I think we're generally on the same page here, Luis. The difficult part, sometimes, is knowing where to focus. I wouldn't call .Net a "niche" market, though. I think if you're strong in .Net and SQL Server you'll have some work to do. :-) -max
Hehe indeed :-D Nice meeting you.
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
I've coded in both and I think that ASP.NET should be used for any application that will be continued to be developed on after you're gone. If you code ASP.NET applications right, they'll be more understandable. Its more the same argument of why ASP.NET is better than classic ASP. No spaghetti code. Microsoft knows enterprise development. On the other hand, "quick and dirty, done right" should be the motto of PHP. I love using AJAX with PHP (this was before the 3.5 Framework came out). I prefer generating tables from code rather than dinking around with configuring a repeater control. BUT! When the next developer gets his hands on my code, he or she is gonna need to understand it as fast as possible, which is why I code in ASP.NET now. -Anton
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As much as I can admire you for trying to compare these: go with what the client wants, it'll be good for you. PHP is able to be run on any OS which has a server written for it and more importantly, the language implementation is free (this could be, through and through, why the client wants use of the language..). MySQL is, again, able to be run on any OS (again, a good choice on their part if they want the code to be run-able on any server they decide to use). ASP.net is primarily class-based, while PHP is the JoaT here in that it has both OOP and Functional Programming models as default ways to go about things. MSSQL can be good at some things, but in my experience, it's expensive and slow in comparison to MySQL when using MySQL's InnoDB storage engine. As previous posters have said, they've each got their ups and downs, therefore neither is better. I uses PHP by preference as I can get more done faster. For an IDE (of sorts), I use PHP.net's documentation and NotePad++ (http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/) plus the editor has a built-in help mechanism to do lookups on PHP.net by a key-combination (Alt + F1). Hope you can see where I'm coming from with this as it's not a crime to use free languages and free software, but (imho) it is a crime to get stuck down to just one language pair (ASP.net/MSSQL) just because you cannot see the merits of a different language pair (PHP/MySQL) and accept when a client wants to use them ;).
The worst thing about the darkness is the light at the end - DX-MON
RichardMant wrote:
Hope you can see where I'm coming from with this as it's not a crime to use free languages and free software, but (imho) it is a crime to get stuck down to just one language pair (ASP.net/MSSQL) just because you cannot see the merits of a different language pair (PHP/MySQL) and accept when a client wants to use them Wink .
No, of course it isn't a crime to use free languages and tools - by no means. It's no crime to have exposure to multiple technologies either - if you have the bandwidth to do so. I started to find after awhile that trying to master two (or more) completely different technologies (at the same time, at least) made it difficult to develop proficiency in either one of them. Perhaps I'm just getting old and tired compared with some of the younger hot-shots around here but it's not easy to study two different disciplines at the same time! ;-) For example: I spent some time recently studying the Java platform. While there is a lot of commonality between it and C# the syntax of the two (and the toolset) are just enough different that I would constantly be trying to remember what goes with what. (I run into this when coding VB.Net vs C#) Yes, I could do it - and probably make it work, however I developed the distinct feeling like I was standing on two boats that were drifting apart. There's massive amounts of learning to be done for both platforms if you want to become proficient in (and keep up with) either one of them. So ... it was either step onto one boat or the other or fall into the water. I can, at least, say that I have some EXPOSURE to the Java platform - however when it came down to spending money on books and development tools to become proficient at I had to pick one and that had to be .Net in my case. (I've been Microsoft platform for a long time, so a complete switch would be like throwing the car into reverse at 80MPH!). Finally ... if you're really concerned with being a QUALITY developer, you have to develop the ability to know which jobs to walk away from. (I can hear the consultants shuddering in their boots). I would much rather walk away from an assignment that involves a technology that I only marginally know than to get knee deep in it and have to spend too much "catch-up" time trying to make it all work. My point? Develop proficiency in as much as you can - but be careful not to spread yourself too thin. If you REALLY CAN become an expert in both ASP.Net and PHP and maintain eng
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
Facebook applications support asp.net too with the use of FBML and FBJS. I suppose both language are equal supportive for facebook applications. Cheers, Avnish
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Because they are comited to free software and PHP gets well with MySQL and Linux :)
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
It sounds like this company already has a PHP / MySQL infrastructure. Which probably means they have the resources in place to support these technologies. If you are a temporary employee (contractor), then you owe it to your client to leave them something they can maintain. In the end, there is probably no difference in what can be built with either technologies. Only in certain instances would .NET have benefits. If this is a simple website with a db backend, then working with PHP / MySQL is not limiting.
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RichardMant wrote:
Hope you can see where I'm coming from with this as it's not a crime to use free languages and free software, but (imho) it is a crime to get stuck down to just one language pair (ASP.net/MSSQL) just because you cannot see the merits of a different language pair (PHP/MySQL) and accept when a client wants to use them Wink .
No, of course it isn't a crime to use free languages and tools - by no means. It's no crime to have exposure to multiple technologies either - if you have the bandwidth to do so. I started to find after awhile that trying to master two (or more) completely different technologies (at the same time, at least) made it difficult to develop proficiency in either one of them. Perhaps I'm just getting old and tired compared with some of the younger hot-shots around here but it's not easy to study two different disciplines at the same time! ;-) For example: I spent some time recently studying the Java platform. While there is a lot of commonality between it and C# the syntax of the two (and the toolset) are just enough different that I would constantly be trying to remember what goes with what. (I run into this when coding VB.Net vs C#) Yes, I could do it - and probably make it work, however I developed the distinct feeling like I was standing on two boats that were drifting apart. There's massive amounts of learning to be done for both platforms if you want to become proficient in (and keep up with) either one of them. So ... it was either step onto one boat or the other or fall into the water. I can, at least, say that I have some EXPOSURE to the Java platform - however when it came down to spending money on books and development tools to become proficient at I had to pick one and that had to be .Net in my case. (I've been Microsoft platform for a long time, so a complete switch would be like throwing the car into reverse at 80MPH!). Finally ... if you're really concerned with being a QUALITY developer, you have to develop the ability to know which jobs to walk away from. (I can hear the consultants shuddering in their boots). I would much rather walk away from an assignment that involves a technology that I only marginally know than to get knee deep in it and have to spend too much "catch-up" time trying to make it all work. My point? Develop proficiency in as much as you can - but be careful not to spread yourself too thin. If you REALLY CAN become an expert in both ASP.Net and PHP and maintain eng
It is a fair point (the walking away bit) however, C# => Java is a massive jump and you should not compare the syntaxes as they are different (I don't do Java either, btw; Exposure is my limit to it too for the moment). I would have said going from C++ => Java is easier, imho. But I still won't loose sight of where you're coming from. (your analogy of the car being thrown into reverse sounds quite fun actually, btw.. :P) I'm not saying the OP shouldn't walk away from this, but what I was meaning is they should not be so scorning about the languages they were being asked to use which comes back to the point of my first post.. Languages become popular, normally, because they have advantages over others, and a problem must have an appropriate language picked to solve it. I've seen some really great stuff coded in ASP(.net) (CodeProject's site for one!) but I've also seem some atrocious stuff that can be attributed solely to a bad pick of language or simply the developer being too anti other languages of the same class to recognise them as options that might be better (PHP and ASP.net being of the same class: Web languages). The same goes for PHP sites.
The worst thing about the darkness is the light at the end - DX-MON
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I would actually disagree with you on this. For rapid (visual) development PHP is a clear winner for me. This comes from a programmer that started out with PHP and then got involved with the .NET framework, C# and ASP.NET. To me PHP is just much easier to understand, the way a page is rendered to the screen in ASP.NET confuses me a lot! Besides that I'd say that learning PHP for a .NET programmer is very easy. PHP.net has excellent documentation, better than MSDN in my opinion. I must say that I don't program many functions within PHP. Aside from some often used tools, login classes and some security stuff I hardly use OOP within PHP. Both are fine programming languages but I'd advise the OP to just give PHP a go, maybe not for this project, but just try it some time. You might like it ;)
I had a question for you regarding that rapid development. I'm an ASP.NET dev, and I've recently become interested in PHP. Largely because of Facebook, and how easy they make it to use their PHP API. The PHP language itself is ok, I actually prefer Ruby syntax and more of an OOP approach, but I have no real problem with the language itself, and the ubiquity of it makes PHP a breeze to deploy. What I'm concerned about are the tools/components. Microsoft seems to have put all their eggs into the '1-click databound awesomeness basket', and while they are a little inflexible at times, they do make your plain vanilla datagrid/repeater stuff really quick and easy. Does PHP have anything that parallels these types of controls?
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
As far as MySQL vs. Sql Server - It's pretty much a wash. As long as you stick to ANSI queries they both are identical. PHP vs. DotNet is another issue. PHP is probably running on a LAMP server (Linux-Apache-MySql-PHP) which means it is all free. To switch to DotNet would require implementing (purchasing) a MS Server solution of some sort. Could be big additional bucks depending on their requirements. W3Schools has a pretty good PHP tutorial that can get you started. There are others... There are also some pretty good PHP IDEs out there.
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I had a question for you regarding that rapid development. I'm an ASP.NET dev, and I've recently become interested in PHP. Largely because of Facebook, and how easy they make it to use their PHP API. The PHP language itself is ok, I actually prefer Ruby syntax and more of an OOP approach, but I have no real problem with the language itself, and the ubiquity of it makes PHP a breeze to deploy. What I'm concerned about are the tools/components. Microsoft seems to have put all their eggs into the '1-click databound awesomeness basket', and while they are a little inflexible at times, they do make your plain vanilla datagrid/repeater stuff really quick and easy. Does PHP have anything that parallels these types of controls?
Well, for as far as I know PHP does not have controls sets through any IDE. I have never been a fan of the drag and drop approach within programming languages and when i'm building ASP.NET websites you would see me coding it anyway. With that said, there are libraries which offer specific sets of tools for PHP. jQuery is an example of this library, and yes I do know that this is javascript but it's perfectly integratable with PHP. Personally I've programmed PHP for 7 years with notepad and an FTP application. Last year I started using NotePad++ which does Syntax coloring for me which is always great. If you want to take a step further in rapid PHP development I'd advise you to take a good look as Vs.PHP http://www.jcxsoftware.com/vs.php[^]. This is a plugin for your Visual Studio environment of choice and provides syntax coloring, instellisense and debugging for your PHP websites. If you have any other question, ask away :)
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
I will add my voice to the choir: MySQL is somewhat cheaper than SQL PHP plays nice with MySQL Both php and MySQL are FREE. Expanding/Duplicating systems is therefore also free. Neither application is worried about what Micro$oft will due next. Change your ways, Grasshopper !
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek dissappointment. If you are searching for perfection in yourself, then you seek failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Well, for as far as I know PHP does not have controls sets through any IDE. I have never been a fan of the drag and drop approach within programming languages and when i'm building ASP.NET websites you would see me coding it anyway. With that said, there are libraries which offer specific sets of tools for PHP. jQuery is an example of this library, and yes I do know that this is javascript but it's perfectly integratable with PHP. Personally I've programmed PHP for 7 years with notepad and an FTP application. Last year I started using NotePad++ which does Syntax coloring for me which is always great. If you want to take a step further in rapid PHP development I'd advise you to take a good look as Vs.PHP http://www.jcxsoftware.com/vs.php[^]. This is a plugin for your Visual Studio environment of choice and provides syntax coloring, instellisense and debugging for your PHP websites. If you have any other question, ask away :)
Thanks for the info! I use Visual Studio all day and I love it, but I'm a huge fan of the hammer + nails approach, and Notepad++ is one of my favorite tools. Also, for dynamically typed languages like PHP and Ruby, I find the intellisense can't be too great anyway. More and more I'm of the mindset that fancy tools often remove flexibility and power from what I'm trying to do. As far as the libraries you mentioned, do they have the concept of databound controls? In other words, in classic ASP I'd have to write a for loop and for each record in the db i'd generate table markup by hand. In ASP.NET I can just pass a dataset or datatable object to a gridview control and it lays it out for me, generating all the markup. Again, it can be very inflexible when you want to get fancy, but for plain vanilla data presentation it is a MAJOR time-saver, especially now that it has built in sorting and paging. Does PHP have controls like these out there in the public domain, or does everyone roll their own?
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
Perhaps you are asking the wrong question. If the customer has a PHP/MySQL base and you are not comfortable working with these, then perhaps you should recommend another developer for the task instead of trying to change the customer. On the other hand if you can work in NET/SQL, you should not have much problem working in PHP/MySQL. Most languages have similar structure; the most significant differences are syntax.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
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With experience it becomes a mental step that does not require work on paper. However, when confronted with something new and scary it breaks it down into something a lot more management. Irregardless, to use an imaginary word, it is a legitimate deliverable step.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Irregardless is not a word :-) The correct word is simply "regardless"
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Irregardless is not a word :-) The correct word is simply "regardless"
Reread my post. "Irregardless, to use an imaginary word, it is a legitimate deliverable step."
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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I know it sounds terrible. But i have ended up in a situation where the client only use PHP and MYSQL. And that means i have to learn PHP and MYSQL which am not that excited about. I am just wondering - what is the best way i can convince them to use .NET technology instead of PHP and sql server instead of mysql. But then they can say Facebook uses PHP and it's good. So what do you all suggest .NET or PHP ? Which one is better ?
I'm sorry but it sounds like you're looking for a way to justify choosing .NET over PHP. I will answer your question rather as "Why .NET vs PHP?" .NET relies on a centrally controlled library. Your code is basically pseudo code which gets interpreted and delivered to the client browser. What this means is .NET has the advantage of cross-browser support out of the box without any special programming. Trying to do so in PHP is more of a manual process or piecemeal. Another advantage to the central library aka .NET is one patch enables (or on a rare note, disables) more features, possibly more browser support without any change to the web page code. Security issues such as SQL injection is handled by .NET as well as others. The chances of forgetting to call a "Cleaning" function in PHP presents a problem for the loose PHP programmer. Also, I had been avoiding .NET as it is a buzzword, and I know this one in particular colleague of mine who talks .NET to a point where it sounds complex, confusing, and impressive. Recently, however, I have delved into .NET and I have to laugh at the ease at which everything is done. The next time I spoke with my colleague and she started rambling about .NET, I told her I took a look at it and created some proof-of-concept pages to help me understand it. She was like, "WOW, you did that?" I told her my overview of .NET as it is more a "point, click, and done" system than a language or developer environment. I told her, ".NET, Silverlight, all the same thing. It's really impressive in its centrally managed core, but it's not for me. I like getting my hands dirty." So that is my take on the situation. .NET/Silverlight is great, but it's not for me. If you want to impress your clients, tell them you'll be developing in .NET AND Silverlight and they will be impressed. Silverlight is kind of a buzzword now and I told my co-workers I have done some of our web pages in Silverlight and they pretty much did a jaw drop. You can imagine how a non-developer would react... I hope you find this useful. Gary