What we are and what is this universe?
-
Brian Azzopardi wrote: I know that in your post you were criticing my position but I couldnt help using your own arguments against you. I hope you don't mind Not at all - I love debate :) Brian Azzopardi wrote: why do you percieve the existence of God. You surely cant be certain he/she/it exists? What proof do you have? Having grown up in an area of extreme natural beauty, it has always been easy for me to believe in God, just by looking around me. It also seems to me that humans wouldn't have the desire for a greater being if it were unnatural, and we were purely developed from evolution. Proof. I have only one memory of tangible proof that would satisfy your question. In high school I was in boarding school. Every Tuesday a local church would have members come round and we could miss evening study hall if we wanted and attend their teaching instead. While I did believe in God, I have to admit that getting out of study hall was a big motivator for all of us. One evening they prayed over this younger (14 year old, still growing) boy, that his one leg which was about 2 inches shorter than the other would grow to become the same length. Seems perfectly reasonable - he was still growing, why shouldn't it catch up over the next 4 to 5 years while he grows to adulthood? The only thing was, by the end of the prayer they were both the same length! I wish I had kept my eyes open. Otherwise it seems that proof is all around us, in every beautiful thing we see. Equally we can see evil every day, and don't have to look too far to find it. One thing I always find surprising is that people are more than happy to believe in the evil supernatural, but question the good. Asking me to prove something that we have both agreed is beyond our comprehension is ludicrous. Do I believe? Yes. And I always will. :)
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages A moment of silence please. A programmer's best friend has passed beyond that great exception in the sky.... - Mark Conger on "The coffee machine has died"
Megan Forbes wrote: Otherwise it seems that proof is all around us, in every beautiful thing we see. Equally we can see evil every day, and don't have to look too far to find it. One thing I always find surprising is that people are more than happy to believe in the evil supernatural, but question the good. Asking me to prove something that we have both agreed is beyond our comprehension is ludicrous. Do I believe? Yes. And I always will. I wish I could believe like you do. I would really like to think of my dead mother and father in heaven, waiting for me. Then I think of the five-year old African boy gradually going blind because a worm is eating through his eye, and all the children in Africa and other parts of the world, and how much they have to suffer. If there is a god, and he lets this happen, he can keep heaven to himself. There is simply no way to reconcile the notion of goodness with what "god" allows to happen in the world, unless you're living in your own mental version of heaven on earth. Go to Africa. Then tell us how beautiful the world is.
-
Christian Graus wrote: Please don't evict me Meg, I'm on my knees..... Lol - you will see that the great exception in the sky has left us, but you are still a lodger :)
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages Religion without Science is blind, Science without Religion is lame -Albert Einstein
*grin* see, I know how to get my way. Just debase myself and beg furiously..... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
-
Shaun Wilde wrote: Lets take the 10 commandments the main basis for 3 of the worlds main religions Really ? Which ones ? Judaism I'll give you, Christianity is built on Jesus explanation of the commandments - 'love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbour as yourself'. And Islam rejects Christ and the Bible in all but lip service. Shaun Wilde wrote: 8 of them contain 'shalt not' not 'shall'. Pretty negative don't you think? Let's review them - don't kill people, don't steal, don't build resentment for your friends by desiring the things they have, don't mistreat your parents, which of these things strikes you as having a negative impact on society ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
Christian Graus wrote: And Islam rejects Christ and the Bible in all but lip service The 10 commandments are from Moses and the Old Testament - and as I understand it Moses is a pretty strong figure in Islam as well as in Judasim and Christianity. Christian Graus wrote: which of these things strikes you as having a negative impact on society I never said they were wrong - just negative in phrasing - a list of things you shouldn't do - but not a not of what you are allowed to do. Thou shall not kill - would much more postive if it was - thou shall love life in all of its forms. The teachings of Jesus was a redress to some of the negativeness of the current religions of the time. And I think this is why Christian countries tend to have more freedoms as Jesus allowed us to challenge religion more openly and thus allowed us to remove power from religion to the elected-state.
Stupidity dies. The end of future offspring. Evolution wins. - A Darwin Awards Haiku
-
pankajdaga wrote: Religion without Science is blind, Science without Religion is lame- -Albert Einstein I wonder if I have enough space left to add that to my sig :-D
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages A moment of silence please. A programmer's best friend has passed beyond that great exception in the sky.... - Mark Conger on "The coffee machine has died"
There is always space for more :-D Anyways, it is worth it to see Christian beg ;P Without struggle, there is no progress
-
Christian Graus wrote: And Islam rejects Christ and the Bible in all but lip service The 10 commandments are from Moses and the Old Testament - and as I understand it Moses is a pretty strong figure in Islam as well as in Judasim and Christianity. Christian Graus wrote: which of these things strikes you as having a negative impact on society I never said they were wrong - just negative in phrasing - a list of things you shouldn't do - but not a not of what you are allowed to do. Thou shall not kill - would much more postive if it was - thou shall love life in all of its forms. The teachings of Jesus was a redress to some of the negativeness of the current religions of the time. And I think this is why Christian countries tend to have more freedoms as Jesus allowed us to challenge religion more openly and thus allowed us to remove power from religion to the elected-state.
Stupidity dies. The end of future offspring. Evolution wins. - A Darwin Awards Haiku
Shaun Wilde wrote: and as I understand it Moses is a pretty strong figure in Islam as well as in Judasim and Christianity. Moses is not terribly important to Christianity, no more so that Jonah or Job. I can't speak for Islam. As I said, the 10 commandments were explained by Jesus in exactly the sort of speech you call for later in your post - two things to do, namely love God and each other. Shaun Wilde wrote: I never said they were wrong - just negative in phrasing - a list of things you shouldn't do - but not a not of what you are allowed to do. Actually, one of them is 'honour your mother and father'. The phrasing is simply direct and to the point. Shaun Wilde wrote: The teachings of Jesus was a redress to some of the negativeness of the current religions of the time. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, which He did. The problem was not in the commandment, but in mans response to it as a list of rules instead of a window into the sort of attitudes God would have us adopt in our daily lives. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
-
I won't answer for Paul but here my $0.2: Aisha Ikram wrote: what is our end? We do not have an end. Aisha Ikram wrote: where we will eventually go? Maggot food. Aisha Ikram wrote: are we totally destroyed after our deaths? Nope. Our body will decompose and act as "food" for the soil and maggots. Cows will eat the grass that used to be bits of your body. A mother will drink that cow's (processed) milk and one day give birth a beautiful baby. So, in a way, we are eternal :) Aisha Ikram wrote: we have came from We evolved. Ever heard of Darwin? Aisha Ikram wrote: you have ever studied biology, it was proved that a non-living cell can't create a living cell, only a living cell can produce another living cell. Bullshit. I have studied biology. Ever heard of Darwin? A "living" cell is considered as living because it exhibits certain properties. Scientists have managed to artificially create "life"; i.e. they got a bunch of chemicals to exhibit certain properties which collectively are called "life". Aisha Ikram wrote: very first living cell Ever heard of Darwin? (I'm getting a sense of deja vu here. Are u? :)) We are ultimately a bunch of chemicals. Chemical properties change and different arrangements can produce different results viz: both me and Saddam Husein can be termed as living but I sure as hell hope I'm different than him. Is reducing human beings to a bunch of chemicals too reductive? In a way it is; after all Leonardo da Vinci/Mozart/Eistein were much more than just a collection of elements. This is where random mutation and evolution come together; a "miracle" happened and the right combination of chemicals along with the right social conditions created these geniuses. If all the above seems simplistic to you or too cynical be my guest; I can understand why people need to believe that a god exists and that life has meaning; that's why people with huge egos used to build pyramids. Most people have an emotional need and don't let the facts get in the way of good story (Bible/Koran/etc). I'm one of those people who don't mind spoiling a good story; I prefer the truth. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
This is the sad thing. Organized religion has made it loose its essense. Someone once said, truth is a pathless land. By trying to organize it, we loose it and create a tool for war! To learn the beauty of religion, you always have to go to its source. Christianity was at its greatest, when jesus was around...Buddhism was at its best, when Buddha was there and so on... Any belief system will get crudified over time. However, you cannot judge it based on that. religion is a cause of a lot of grief, but people always forget it has given a lot to people too in the form of hope and contentment. On the question of God, ANY religion or text will become superfluous in describing it. God is beyond verbal description, beyond mind itself in my opinion. The only way to realize God is through direct experience and nothing else. This is as scientific as it can ever get! Pankaj Without struggle, there is no progress
-
Paul Watson wrote: "I am not a follower of any organised/mass religion. I am still too young to be able to give you a standard answer to this. Many things I am still thinking about, many things I have yet to even start thinking about. I have much life left to live before I can claim any religion or belief system as my own." So you will choose your own religion with time, one which you think is true and you are not bound to choose any. Ok tell me what you think what is our end? where we will eventually go? are we totally destroyed after our deaths? Paul Watson wrote: Right now I believe in the universe and that that is all there is, which in itself is a lot. No being which stands outside of the universe and looks down on us. ok then what you think we have came from? and how did it happen. you see science says, livings things are created from living things and life is not possible out of life-less entities. for example, i you have ever studied biology, it was proved that a non-living cell can't create a living cell, only a living cell can produce another living cell. I wonder, if this is true and has been proven, from where did this very first living cell come from on earth which created other living things. @ish@ check my latest article in .NET section What is Common Language Runtime(CLR)?
Aisha Ikram wrote: So you will choose your own religion with time, one which you think is true and you are not bound to choose any Yes. I may, and this seems more likely, end up making my own "religion." I actually think most people end up doing this. Taking wise words, experiences, thoughts etc. from am myriad of sources and compiling it into what they believe in. But it never stops, not until the day you die. Everyday you modify your beliefs, think up new things, throw away misguided thoughts etc. Aisha Ikram wrote: are we totally destroyed after our deaths? Yes, when one is pronounced dead, one is dead. There is no soul or afterlife. My thinking being is the result of electro-chemical reactions in my fleshy brain. When they stop, I stop. No energetic entity is released from my body either. Aisha Ikram wrote: ok then what you think we have came from? This is a scary question to which I and nobody else has the answer. If you think really long and hard about the creation of the universe you will find yourself stumped. There is no logical explanation and I defy anybody to give me one. If you say God created the universe... I ask who created God? And who created the being that created God? And who created that... and so on. Logically, none of us should be here. Nothing is too real a word to describe what should be "here", just as "here" signifies something and so cannot really be used. We have no words to describe what came before, even "before" is non-sensical. What I mean by this is that NULL is what should be here. Not nothing, but NULL. Even logic should not exist, neither should it's opposite, or anything in between. Aisha Ikram wrote: only a living cell can produce another living cell I don't believe that. In fact as someone else mentioned "life" is simply the properties of a collection of certain atoms. Everything is made up of atoms, I am no different to a star in my ultimate composition or source. There are not "alive" atoms and "non-alive" atoms. There are only atoms, and the things that make up atoms. Scale up a bit and I am made up of non-organic elements. Potasium, calcium, carbon, oxygen, hydrogen etc. etc. When place in certain configurations these elements react through atomic forces and the result is a complex interworking which we call life. This is also why I scorn people who say life can only exist on Earth like planets.
-
ProffK wrote: Its about non-living things becoming living things. How is that possible ? Seriously, how can that be, when natural law is for things to atrophy, not to go from chaos to order ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Seriously, how can that be, when natural law is for things to atrophy, not to go from chaos to order The laws of thermodynamics (including entropy) are only applicable to closed systems. Earth is not a closed system. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
-
Megan Forbes wrote: Otherwise it seems that proof is all around us, in every beautiful thing we see. Equally we can see evil every day, and don't have to look too far to find it. One thing I always find surprising is that people are more than happy to believe in the evil supernatural, but question the good. Asking me to prove something that we have both agreed is beyond our comprehension is ludicrous. Do I believe? Yes. And I always will. I wish I could believe like you do. I would really like to think of my dead mother and father in heaven, waiting for me. Then I think of the five-year old African boy gradually going blind because a worm is eating through his eye, and all the children in Africa and other parts of the world, and how much they have to suffer. If there is a god, and he lets this happen, he can keep heaven to himself. There is simply no way to reconcile the notion of goodness with what "god" allows to happen in the world, unless you're living in your own mental version of heaven on earth. Go to Africa. Then tell us how beautiful the world is.
-
I won't answer for Paul but here my $0.2: Aisha Ikram wrote: what is our end? We do not have an end. Aisha Ikram wrote: where we will eventually go? Maggot food. Aisha Ikram wrote: are we totally destroyed after our deaths? Nope. Our body will decompose and act as "food" for the soil and maggots. Cows will eat the grass that used to be bits of your body. A mother will drink that cow's (processed) milk and one day give birth a beautiful baby. So, in a way, we are eternal :) Aisha Ikram wrote: we have came from We evolved. Ever heard of Darwin? Aisha Ikram wrote: you have ever studied biology, it was proved that a non-living cell can't create a living cell, only a living cell can produce another living cell. Bullshit. I have studied biology. Ever heard of Darwin? A "living" cell is considered as living because it exhibits certain properties. Scientists have managed to artificially create "life"; i.e. they got a bunch of chemicals to exhibit certain properties which collectively are called "life". Aisha Ikram wrote: very first living cell Ever heard of Darwin? (I'm getting a sense of deja vu here. Are u? :)) We are ultimately a bunch of chemicals. Chemical properties change and different arrangements can produce different results viz: both me and Saddam Husein can be termed as living but I sure as hell hope I'm different than him. Is reducing human beings to a bunch of chemicals too reductive? In a way it is; after all Leonardo da Vinci/Mozart/Eistein were much more than just a collection of elements. This is where random mutation and evolution come together; a "miracle" happened and the right combination of chemicals along with the right social conditions created these geniuses. If all the above seems simplistic to you or too cynical be my guest; I can understand why people need to believe that a god exists and that life has meaning; that's why people with huge egos used to build pyramids. Most people have an emotional need and don't let the facts get in the way of good story (Bible/Koran/etc). I'm one of those people who don't mind spoiling a good story; I prefer the truth. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: Scientists have managed to artificially create "life"; i.e. they got a bunch of chemicals to exhibit certain properties which collectively are called "life". I don't believe that. Could you cite the study? "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
-
Christian Graus wrote: And Islam rejects Christ and the Bible in all but lip service The 10 commandments are from Moses and the Old Testament - and as I understand it Moses is a pretty strong figure in Islam as well as in Judasim and Christianity. Christian Graus wrote: which of these things strikes you as having a negative impact on society I never said they were wrong - just negative in phrasing - a list of things you shouldn't do - but not a not of what you are allowed to do. Thou shall not kill - would much more postive if it was - thou shall love life in all of its forms. The teachings of Jesus was a redress to some of the negativeness of the current religions of the time. And I think this is why Christian countries tend to have more freedoms as Jesus allowed us to challenge religion more openly and thus allowed us to remove power from religion to the elected-state.
Stupidity dies. The end of future offspring. Evolution wins. - A Darwin Awards Haiku
-
well i just heard :-). Ok what you think what is the purpose of human beings? why we are in this world? @ish@ check my latest article in .NET section What is Common Language Runtime(CLR)?
This sounds more like Soapbox material but... Aisha Ikram wrote: Ok what you think what is the purpose of human beings? There is no purpose. why we are in this world? It was all an accident. Pure random luck. If you keep looking for a purpose in life, then you are wasting your time. Get out and enjoy yourself, it's the only chance you'll get. Michael Fat bottomed girls You make the rockin' world go round -- Queen
-
ProffK wrote: Africa, especially South, is a beautiful place. :-D amen! Though I reckon there is hardly a place on Earth that is not beautiful in some way. Different yes, but still beautiful.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaChristopher Duncan wrote: Which explains why when Santa asked, "And what do you want for Christmas, little boy?" I said, "A life." (Accesories sold separately)
-
ProffK wrote: We have no purpose other than what we assign ourselves. Damn! It took me a whole post to say what you said in one line :-D
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaChristopher Duncan wrote: Which explains why when Santa asked, "And what do you want for Christmas, little boy?" I said, "A life." (Accesories sold separately)
-
Megan Forbes wrote: Otherwise it seems that proof is all around us, in every beautiful thing we see. Equally we can see evil every day, and don't have to look too far to find it. One thing I always find surprising is that people are more than happy to believe in the evil supernatural, but question the good. Asking me to prove something that we have both agreed is beyond our comprehension is ludicrous. Do I believe? Yes. And I always will. I wish I could believe like you do. I would really like to think of my dead mother and father in heaven, waiting for me. Then I think of the five-year old African boy gradually going blind because a worm is eating through his eye, and all the children in Africa and other parts of the world, and how much they have to suffer. If there is a god, and he lets this happen, he can keep heaven to himself. There is simply no way to reconcile the notion of goodness with what "god" allows to happen in the world, unless you're living in your own mental version of heaven on earth. Go to Africa. Then tell us how beautiful the world is.
Luther Weeks wrote: Go to Africa. Then tell us how beautiful the world is. Lol - I grew up in Africa. Strangely enough, although I have done missionary work in Lesotho, the most tragic bunch of kids I have ever seen were inner-city kids from New York city who I spent 3 months working with, teaching pc skills and swimming to them. Many had been born addicted, were malnourished - not hungry, but the crap they were being fed did them no good whatsoever. It seems funny to hear someone from the US talk about African kids when there are so many kids suffering on your home ground. Nature is harsh, but most of the problems you talk about have been caused by greedy humans (with free will).
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages Religion without Science is blind, Science without Religion is lame -Albert Einstein
-
Paul Watson wrote: "I am not a follower of any organised/mass religion. I am still too young to be able to give you a standard answer to this. Many things I am still thinking about, many things I have yet to even start thinking about. I have much life left to live before I can claim any religion or belief system as my own." So you will choose your own religion with time, one which you think is true and you are not bound to choose any. Ok tell me what you think what is our end? where we will eventually go? are we totally destroyed after our deaths? Paul Watson wrote: Right now I believe in the universe and that that is all there is, which in itself is a lot. No being which stands outside of the universe and looks down on us. ok then what you think we have came from? and how did it happen. you see science says, livings things are created from living things and life is not possible out of life-less entities. for example, i you have ever studied biology, it was proved that a non-living cell can't create a living cell, only a living cell can produce another living cell. I wonder, if this is true and has been proven, from where did this very first living cell come from on earth which created other living things. @ish@ check my latest article in .NET section What is Common Language Runtime(CLR)?
Aisha Ikram wrote: Ok tell me what you think what is our end? where we will eventually go? are we totally destroyed after our deaths? Well, given the limitations of our own knowledge, we do not have any definitive answer. Then there are a group of people throughout the history of mankind who have answered these questions on behalf of the creator. They are called the messengers or prophets, namely Adam, Noah, Lot, Joseph, Jonah, David, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. We have the freedom to accept (believe) or reject them; it is our choice.
-
well i just heard :-). Ok what you think what is the purpose of human beings? why we are in this world? @ish@ check my latest article in .NET section What is Common Language Runtime(CLR)?
Why should there be a 'why' ? Sorry, but the human race is often either insecure, egotistical or a mix of the two at times ! We're just here, and that does not diminish us. I plan to enjoy life, and I hope to leave things better than I found them so others can as well. Elaine (fluffy tigress emoticon) Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
-
Aisha Ikram wrote: Ok tell me what you think what is our end? where we will eventually go? are we totally destroyed after our deaths? Well, given the limitations of our own knowledge, we do not have any definitive answer. Then there are a group of people throughout the history of mankind who have answered these questions on behalf of the creator. They are called the messengers or prophets, namely Adam, Noah, Lot, Joseph, Jonah, David, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. We have the freedom to accept (believe) or reject them; it is our choice.
Fazlul Kabir wrote: We have the freedom to accept (believe) or reject them; it is our choice. Cool :cool: :rose: Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
-
Brian Azzopardi wrote: Scientists have managed to artificially create "life"; i.e. they got a bunch of chemicals to exhibit certain properties which collectively are called "life". I don't believe that. Could you cite the study? "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan, its been done a few times up to the level of self replicating amino acids (several years ago) and beyond. Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?