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  3. C is a better language than any language you care to name.

C is a better language than any language you care to name.

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  • K Kenneth Kasajian

    Let's start with this. Name any other language other than C. But there's a catch: the language's primary implementation must not currently be in C. So Java, JavaScript, Python don't qualify since they're canonical implementation is written in C. Also, self-hosting doesn't count; in that case, it must not have been bootstrapped with C. I'll start -- Pascal -- first version of Pascal was written in Fortran. Next...

    ken@kasajian.com / www.kasajian.com

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    PIEBALDconsult
    wrote on last edited by
    #109

    Kenneth Kasajian wrote:

    Pascal

    Aaaannnd... how do you work with very long strings? Very large structures*? * Maybe only a problem with Turbo Pascal with its 64K per structure limit.

    You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

    C K 3 Replies Last reply
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    • M Michael Kingsford Gray

      OK, I'll "bite". "C" is quite the most disastrous so-called "language"[1] ever to become popular. Why? It's total lack of marshalling over record boundaries in memory have cost the globe at least several 100 trillion dollars in viruses, damages, fornicate-ups, interminable repairs/patches, Trojans, injuries, deaths, et cetera. That alone is enough to relegate this incurable abortion of a syntactical nightmare to the bit-bucket, if not Spandau prison. Have at it, you "C" devils. ___________________________ [1] Designed for punch-card use, brevity & conservation of card-space were essential. It thereby became an impenetrably terse & line-break free mess. All calculated to save IBM punched cards. And the syntax is dangerously ambiguous, all over the shop. Don't get me started on the monumentally bone-headed notion that CASE statements should cascade through without a BREAK clause! I mean. What total idiot "thought" that this would be a great idea?

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      PIEBALDconsult
      wrote on last edited by
      #110

      Michael Kingsford Gray wrote:

      the monumentally bone-headed notion that CASE statements should cascade through without a BREAK

      :thumbsup: Hear! Hear! That is (in my opinion) the very worst mistake in C.

      You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

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      • D DaveX86

        D language[^] is better. It combines the simplicity of C and avoids all the kludginess of C++ for the same elegance you see in C#. Plus...no *.H files or #defines !!!! :) Plus garbage collection!

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        PIEBALDconsult
        wrote on last edited by
        #111

        DaveX86 wrote:

        Plus...no *.H files or #defines

        The can have my # defines when they pry them from my cold, dead hands.

        You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

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        • J jschell

          Joe Woodbury wrote:

          The declaration does and thus the precompiler) and sizeof(), but not the array itself.

          Rather certain that the precompiler is in fact part of the language since it is in fact part of the specification for the language. If you wish to another definition for "language" than the specification then you would need to provide one. And if one wants to be specific then at least in my edition of "C Programming Language 2nd Edition" the preprocessor is part of the main language definition (not an appendix) and the section specifically starts off with "C provides certain language facilities by mean of a processor". So if K&R thinks it is part of the language I am going to take their word for it. Or perhaps to put in in another perspective, limiting oneself to just the "language" then C is in fact useless, since one cannot in any practical way do anything useful with the "language". Thus it can't, again in a practical, real world way, be "better" than anything else.

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          PIEBALDconsult
          wrote on last edited by
          #112

          jschell wrote:

          Rather certain that the precompiler is in fact part of the language

          Yes, and as he said in his response, he didn't say otherwise. Some points I'd like to make are: A language is defined by its compiler (not the other way around). DMR probably could have made C without a pre-processor; I see no reason that C has to have a pre-processor other than that it does have a pre-processor. The existence of D and C# may support this view. I have seen (I don't remember where) at least one argument that the C pre-processor acts on a different language than the C compiler does; and I am in about 90% agreement with that point of view. I like the C pre-processor; it's really just a text processing utility -- it can be used for purposes other than its primary usage. (I even use it with C# -- Implanting Common Code in Unrelated Classes[^]) Unfortunately, it also has some functions (e.g. sizeof) that are tightly bound to C. :sigh:

          jschell wrote:

          limiting oneself to just the "language" then C is in fact useless, since one cannot in any practical way do anything useful with the "language"

          You may be arguing that the language is pretty limited without libraries, and that is quite true, very little can be accomplished without at least printf -- I have written a simple program that calculates a value and returns it from main, simply to demonstrate that something, no matter how pointless, can be done without linking in any libraries. However, I think the article was also pointing out the ease with which a developer can leverage a multitude of libraries with C. Just the other week I was playing with ODBC, and linking in only the ODBC libraries and not the "standard C libraries". Of course, doing so still requires the pre-processor, as the Creator intended.

          jschell wrote:

          I am going to take their word for it

          Soooo... if Microsoft says that VB is the World's Greatest Language.... ? :suss:

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          • P PIEBALDconsult

            DaveX86 wrote:

            Plus...no *.H files or #defines

            The can have my # defines when they pry them from my cold, dead hands.

            You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

            D Offline
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            DaveX86
            wrote on last edited by
            #113

            :)

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • P PIEBALDconsult

              Colborne_Greg wrote:

              the "with" operator

              ...is useless filth. X|

              You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

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              Colborne_Greg
              wrote on last edited by
              #114

              Which is more readable to everyone, and which uses less lines?

              Public Shared Function RotateStream(stream As IsolatedStorageFileStream, angle As Int16) As WriteableBitmap
                  stream.Position = 0
              
                  Dim bitmap = New BitmapImage()
              
                  bitmap.SetSource(stream)
              
                  Dim WriteableBitmapSource = New WriteableBitmap(bitmap)
                  Dim WriteableBitmapTarget As WriteableBitmap
                  Dim Target As Int64
              
                  With WriteableBitmapSource
              
                      Select Case angle
                          Case 360 : Return WriteableBitmapSource
                          Case 180 : WriteableBitmapTarget = New WriteableBitmap(.PixelWidth, .PixelHeight)
                          Case Else : WriteableBitmapTarget = New WriteableBitmap(.PixelHeight, .PixelWidth)
                      End Select
              
                      For xAxis = 0 To .PixelWidth
                          For yAxis = 0 To .PixelHeight
                              Select Case angle
                                  Case 90
                                      Target = (.PixelWidth - yAxis - 1) + (xAxis \* WriteableBitmapTarget.PixelHeight)
                                      WriteableBitmapTarget.Pixels(Target) = .Pixels(xAxis + yAxis \* .PixelWidth)
                                  Case 180
                                      Target = (.PixelWidth - xAxis - 1) + (.PixelHeight - yAxis - 1) \* .PixelWidth
                                      WriteableBitmapTarget.Pixels(Target) = .Pixels(xAxis + yAxis \* .PixelWidth)
                                  Case 270
                                      Target = yAxis + (.PixelWidth - xAxis - 1) \* WriteableBitmapTarget.PixelWidth
                                      WriteableBitmapTarget.Pixels(Target) = .Pixels(xAxis + yAxis \* .PixelWidth)
                              End Select
                          Next
                      Next
              
                  End With
              
                  Return WriteableBitmapTarget
              End Function
              

              versus without

              public static WriteableBitmap RotateStream(IsolatedStorageFileStream stream, int angle)
              {
              stream.Position = 0;
              if (angle % 90 != 0 || angle < 0) throw new ArgumentException();

                      int target;
                      BitmapImage bitmap = new BitmapImage();
              
                      bitmap.SetSource(stream);
              
                      WriteableBitmap wbSource = new WriteableBitmap(bitmap);
              
                      if (angle % 360 == 0) return wbSource;
                      WriteableBitmap wbTarget = null;
              
                      if (angle % 180 == 0)
                      {
                          wbTarget = new WriteableBitmap(wbSource.PixelWidth, wbSource.PixelHeight);
                      }
              
                      else
                      {
              
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              • P PIEBALDconsult

                Kenneth Kasajian wrote:

                Pascal

                Aaaannnd... how do you work with very long strings? Very large structures*? * Maybe only a problem with Turbo Pascal with its 64K per structure limit.

                You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                C Offline
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                Colborne_Greg
                wrote on last edited by
                #115

                With visual basic, actually most languages deal with strings better then C...

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                • C Colborne_Greg

                  Which is more readable to everyone, and which uses less lines?

                  Public Shared Function RotateStream(stream As IsolatedStorageFileStream, angle As Int16) As WriteableBitmap
                      stream.Position = 0
                  
                      Dim bitmap = New BitmapImage()
                  
                      bitmap.SetSource(stream)
                  
                      Dim WriteableBitmapSource = New WriteableBitmap(bitmap)
                      Dim WriteableBitmapTarget As WriteableBitmap
                      Dim Target As Int64
                  
                      With WriteableBitmapSource
                  
                          Select Case angle
                              Case 360 : Return WriteableBitmapSource
                              Case 180 : WriteableBitmapTarget = New WriteableBitmap(.PixelWidth, .PixelHeight)
                              Case Else : WriteableBitmapTarget = New WriteableBitmap(.PixelHeight, .PixelWidth)
                          End Select
                  
                          For xAxis = 0 To .PixelWidth
                              For yAxis = 0 To .PixelHeight
                                  Select Case angle
                                      Case 90
                                          Target = (.PixelWidth - yAxis - 1) + (xAxis \* WriteableBitmapTarget.PixelHeight)
                                          WriteableBitmapTarget.Pixels(Target) = .Pixels(xAxis + yAxis \* .PixelWidth)
                                      Case 180
                                          Target = (.PixelWidth - xAxis - 1) + (.PixelHeight - yAxis - 1) \* .PixelWidth
                                          WriteableBitmapTarget.Pixels(Target) = .Pixels(xAxis + yAxis \* .PixelWidth)
                                      Case 270
                                          Target = yAxis + (.PixelWidth - xAxis - 1) \* WriteableBitmapTarget.PixelWidth
                                          WriteableBitmapTarget.Pixels(Target) = .Pixels(xAxis + yAxis \* .PixelWidth)
                                  End Select
                              Next
                          Next
                  
                      End With
                  
                      Return WriteableBitmapTarget
                  End Function
                  

                  versus without

                  public static WriteableBitmap RotateStream(IsolatedStorageFileStream stream, int angle)
                  {
                  stream.Position = 0;
                  if (angle % 90 != 0 || angle < 0) throw new ArgumentException();

                          int target;
                          BitmapImage bitmap = new BitmapImage();
                  
                          bitmap.SetSource(stream);
                  
                          WriteableBitmap wbSource = new WriteableBitmap(bitmap);
                  
                          if (angle % 360 == 0) return wbSource;
                          WriteableBitmap wbTarget = null;
                  
                          if (angle % 180 == 0)
                          {
                              wbTarget = new WriteableBitmap(wbSource.PixelWidth, wbSource.PixelHeight);
                          }
                  
                          else
                          {
                  
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                  PIEBALDconsult
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #116

                  OK, now use with to copy values between two instances.

                  You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                  C 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • C Colborne_Greg

                    With visual basic, actually most languages deal with strings better then C...

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                    PIEBALDconsult
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #117

                    Better than Pascal I think you meant.

                    You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                    C 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • P PIEBALDconsult

                      Better than Pascal I think you meant.

                      You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

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                      C Offline
                      Colborne_Greg
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #118

                      No I mean it's a waste of time. When you look at home long at takes to get a result and maintain that result visual basic wins every time.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • P PIEBALDconsult

                        OK, now use with to copy values between two instances.

                        You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                        C Offline
                        C Offline
                        Colborne_Greg
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #119

                        You can't think outside the box can you. Usually I would do something like this to copy a class Public function copy(byval ojbectName as objectType) as objectType Return objectName end function There are many ways of getting values from one structure to another, not just with the use of methods. Lastly this points out that you should be utilizing different methods of programming to get a result instead of manually coding each line out.

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                        • C Colborne_Greg

                          You can't think outside the box can you. Usually I would do something like this to copy a class Public function copy(byval ojbectName as objectType) as objectType Return objectName end function There are many ways of getting values from one structure to another, not just with the use of methods. Lastly this points out that you should be utilizing different methods of programming to get a result instead of manually coding each line out.

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                          PIEBALDconsult
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #120

                          Colborne_Greg wrote:

                          to copy a class

                          Not copying everything; just some values.

                          You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                          C 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • P PIEBALDconsult

                            Colborne_Greg wrote:

                            to copy a class

                            Not copying everything; just some values.

                            You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                            C Offline
                            C Offline
                            Colborne_Greg
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #121

                            If you only want a few of the values use visual basic reflection.

                            P 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • S Simon ORiordan from UK

                              printf("Why is that then?");

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                              Stefan_Lang
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #122

                              // No comment!

                              GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto) Point in case: http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/02/apple_gotofail_lessons[^]

                              1 Reply Last reply
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                              • C Chris Maunder

                                Discuss. I've just read The Unreasonable Effectiveness of C[^] and decided to outsource my ranting response to it

                                cheers Chris Maunder

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                                Stefan_Lang
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #123

                                Funny, I thought the language to-go was Fortran?[^] :doh: Now I'm waiting on a corresponding article about COBOL ;P

                                GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto) Point in case: http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/02/apple_gotofail_lessons[^]

                                1 Reply Last reply
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                                • C Colborne_Greg

                                  Visual basic 2013. It can utilize every C, C++, and C# library. Plus it looks pretty. For example the "with" operator is in Visual basic but is not in C.

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                                  Stefan_Lang
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #124

                                  Have you read the article?

                                  Colborne_Greg wrote:

                                  It can utilize every C, C++, and C# library.

                                  C can be plugged into any application in any language. The author is aware that C itself lacks libraries and he does mention it. So what was your point again?

                                  Colborne_Greg wrote:

                                  Plus it looks pretty.

                                  Ah that. :doh: Ok, seriously. If you meant it has a better readability, that was mentioned by the author, too. So, again the question, what was your point?

                                  Colborne_Greg wrote:

                                  For example the "with" operator is in Visual basic but is not in C.

                                  And it's in Pascal. So what? Again, the author made a point that other languages offer more (and often more complex) language elements - but that doesn't deterr him from listing a number of advantages of the language C that you failed to address entirely. Disclaimer: I don't actually agree with the article. I just wanted to point out that the article already pointed out or implied everything you said, and you did nothing to argue against it. (if that was your purpose)

                                  GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto) Point in case: http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/02/apple_gotofail_lessons[^]

                                  C 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • C Colborne_Greg

                                    If you only want a few of the values use visual basic reflection.

                                    P Offline
                                    P Offline
                                    PIEBALDconsult
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #125

                                    reflection ???!!! :confused: :omg:

                                    You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                                    C 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • M Michael Kingsford Gray

                                      OK, I'll "bite". "C" is quite the most disastrous so-called "language"[1] ever to become popular. Why? It's total lack of marshalling over record boundaries in memory have cost the globe at least several 100 trillion dollars in viruses, damages, fornicate-ups, interminable repairs/patches, Trojans, injuries, deaths, et cetera. That alone is enough to relegate this incurable abortion of a syntactical nightmare to the bit-bucket, if not Spandau prison. Have at it, you "C" devils. ___________________________ [1] Designed for punch-card use, brevity & conservation of card-space were essential. It thereby became an impenetrably terse & line-break free mess. All calculated to save IBM punched cards. And the syntax is dangerously ambiguous, all over the shop. Don't get me started on the monumentally bone-headed notion that CASE statements should cascade through without a BREAK clause! I mean. What total idiot "thought" that this would be a great idea?

                                      S Offline
                                      S Offline
                                      Stefan_Lang
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #126

                                      Michael Kingsford Gray wrote:

                                      several 100 trillion dollars

                                      everyone can make up numbers. Just to get an idea of how ridiculous a claim yours is, check this out: http://xkcd.com/980/huge/#x=-11116&y=-7100&z=4[^] Even if the number you posted were accurate it means nothing at all without context, and you cannot provide that context either: You have to put it into relation to the amount of code written, and then compare to equivalent numbers for different languages. Anyway, the vast majority of really severe and costly bugs are not related to any specific language feature at all, and could have happened in many different programming languages. For instance the Y2K bug was born at a time when C didn't even exist yet: it was a conceptual decision to save memory. Something that at the time made sense for any program, and was kept that way, until people started to realize that it would lead to a problem! That[^] was a costly bug!

                                      Michael Kingsford Gray wrote:

                                      [1] Designed for punch-card use [...]

                                      As all other languages at the time. And the punch card limits are no longer an issue in the modern C language (or other languages that survived: see Modern Fortran, Modern Cobol, etc.).

                                      GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto) Point in case: http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/02/apple_gotofail_lessons[^]

                                      1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • P PIEBALDconsult

                                        Michael Kingsford Gray wrote:

                                        the monumentally bone-headed notion that CASE statements should cascade through without a BREAK

                                        :thumbsup: Hear! Hear! That is (in my opinion) the very worst mistake in C.

                                        You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                                        S Offline
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                                        Stefan_Lang
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #127

                                        Maybe, but at least it's consistent with the goto/label syntax.

                                        GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto) Point in case: http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/02/apple_gotofail_lessons[^]

                                        P 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • S Stefan_Lang

                                          Maybe, but at least it's consistent with the goto/label syntax.

                                          GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto) Point in case: http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/02/apple_gotofail_lessons[^]

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                                          PIEBALDconsult
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #128

                                          Maybe, but break doesn't affect a goto. And I have never used a goto in C.

                                          You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                                          S 1 Reply Last reply
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