Visual Basic needs more credit
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Claiming spam doesn't make it so.. and arguing with folks like this only detracts from your position, it doesn't add to it.
Thanks for your opinion, do you have a diploma in sociology by any chance?
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Nonsense. Mindsets in programming are about how we handle abstractions. Expression syntax is just that.. expression syntax. I find I use the same mindset for programming no matter what language I use.. and I've used a lot over the years. Basic, C, C++, Algol, Perl, Forth, 8086 assembler, 6502 assembler (yes.. I'm that old). I find this statement highly unconvincing.
Do you have a diploma in psychology by any chance?
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Correlation is not causation. Maybe the reason the C programmers are necessary is the nature of the problem that cause C to be picked as the implementation language in the first place. I've spent most of the last 30 years programming very near the hardware level. VB would have been a huge inconvenience for the types of problems I was solving. This doesn't make C/C++ inherently better or worse then VB.. only suited to a different problem domain. As to good vs. bad employees.. there are lots of ways to get those.. I've seen my share of good VB programmers and bad C programmers.. and VICE VERSA. Again.. correlation does not equal causation.
25 years here, came up from cobol and JCL, and worked on switching systems for northern telecom. We are in the cell phone era, not the hardware layer. Anyways the topic is that VB needs more credit. I have seen my share of both as well, and when training people to program how I want them to program its easier to employ people that are not programmers and teach them what I need them to know in VB, if I tried this in C# it would not be possible.
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Consider these two C# statements:
public delegate bool IsItSafe() ;
public event IsItSafe Probe ;they compile just fine and actually work as they should, but the VB.net equivalent:
Delegate Function IsItSafe() as Boolean
Event Probe As IsItSafeyields:
C:\Projects\Template.vb(26) : error BC31084: Events cannot be declared with a delegate type that has a return type.
Event Probe As IsItSafe ~~~~~Not that it's something that is common, but I do use a few events that return bool values in an unusual project of mine.
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
Interesting.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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The entire difference between C# and VB are involved in that factoring, suppressing exceptions is not an acceptable thing for my employee's to do, suppressing exceptions happens by my efficiency team; who decided that at this moment didn't need to know the error. In visual basic with block
With CameraControl.LastKnownTaken DateTakenBlock.Text = .DateTaken FileNameBlock.Text = .FileName LatitudeBlock.Text = .Latitude LongitudeBlock.Text = .Longitude End Withnotice the period, if you cant figure out that the words with a period before them belong to the with block I wouldn't hire you
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A project lead is management. Accounting does not lie about the costs. The picture you gave a psychologist is that you are a lair.
If your project lead doesn't code, then you have much bigger problems than we're discussing here. Also, your accountants will tell you exactly what things cost, this is true. However, this is all that they will tell you. They won't tell you what it would have cost had you taken a different course, what things would have cost if you could work at a higher level of abstraction. There is a point at which individual language features like "with" statements become irrelevant, and you need to think of your program in terms of composing Bayesian filters, simulated annealing, genetic algorithms, and other such high-level topics. VB, C#, and most other languages keep you at the level of writing for loops, when really you'd rather be calling in much higher-level building blocks. You can kind of achieve this by writing a domain-specific language and then interpreting it, but I challenge you to find even one VB programmer among your staff who can manage this. In fact, I'll put my money where my mouth is: I'll bet you $100 that you can't write an AIM-349 scheme interpreter with your hordes of programmers faster than I can write one by myself in Ocaml. And finally, everything that I have spoken is the truth. I am a fairly public person, and you should be able to verify everything that I have said, at least about myself, personally. (Really, though, what the hell does it matter how many companies I own? The real question is who is a better programmer. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that that would be me. Show me your open source code and prove me wrong. Mine is here.)
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If your project lead doesn't code, then you have much bigger problems than we're discussing here. Also, your accountants will tell you exactly what things cost, this is true. However, this is all that they will tell you. They won't tell you what it would have cost had you taken a different course, what things would have cost if you could work at a higher level of abstraction. There is a point at which individual language features like "with" statements become irrelevant, and you need to think of your program in terms of composing Bayesian filters, simulated annealing, genetic algorithms, and other such high-level topics. VB, C#, and most other languages keep you at the level of writing for loops, when really you'd rather be calling in much higher-level building blocks. You can kind of achieve this by writing a domain-specific language and then interpreting it, but I challenge you to find even one VB programmer among your staff who can manage this. In fact, I'll put my money where my mouth is: I'll bet you $100 that you can't write an AIM-349 scheme interpreter with your hordes of programmers faster than I can write one by myself in Ocaml. And finally, everything that I have spoken is the truth. I am a fairly public person, and you should be able to verify everything that I have said, at least about myself, personally. (Really, though, what the hell does it matter how many companies I own? The real question is who is a better programmer. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that that would be me. Show me your open source code and prove me wrong. Mine is here.)
That reply is based on a lot of wrong assumptions
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If you studied languages you would know that opinions are not religion but thanks. Here is am example a large amount of new programmers make int64 Height = 150; int64 width = 150; When the programmer uses Height and Width, the Width has a underline, and because of the number of lines in the file the programmer creates a new variable int64 Width = 150; While this one programmer is using the uppercase Width his peers are using the lowercase width. Is that clear enough for you, Sorry I assumed you had enough experience to know the issues with dealing with case sensitive variables.
Seriously? You are using this is a reason to disparage case sensitivity? This same example goes for case insensitive languages.. all it takes is one programmer using 'width', while another uses something like 'wdth', and we have exactly the same issue. I've seen this so please don't say it isn't possible. Beginning programmers cease being beginners when they start looking at the bigger picture and trying to understand that things like this are possible. Which language they use is inconsequential to that understanding. The issue is one of rigor.. not some language feature. You'll have to try MUCH harder than this to be convincing. And note I have no bone to pick with VB. It has driven a lot of business application development and TOTALLY has its place. Its the 'new Cobol'.. another language much disparaged by many but quite useful in my opinion.
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25 years here, came up from cobol and JCL, and worked on switching systems for northern telecom. We are in the cell phone era, not the hardware layer. Anyways the topic is that VB needs more credit. I have seen my share of both as well, and when training people to program how I want them to program its easier to employ people that are not programmers and teach them what I need them to know in VB, if I tried this in C# it would not be possible.
My experience of non-programmers is like this: they are good at small things. Ask them for small programs that do simple things and you are golden. Ask them for anything requiring Systems Analysis and real rigor and you've got serious quality problems on your hands. Its not that you can't get it from untrained individuals.. only that it takes a LOT longer. And 'the hardware layer' is where systems programming lives, which is what I do.. 'cellphone era' is a reference to time, not computers. I really don't know what you are trying to say.. As to C# vs. VB and trainability.. nonsense. I've seen folks pick up both. And seriously: what do you have against programmers?
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My entire company is based around dealing with behavior's of errors. When nothing is done for an error it was meant to be that way
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Wrong. You just gave the exact details of the situation reinforcing their similarities.
You didn't read my post? There are different portions of the IL set used by both languages.. its why they are different. This isn't subject to opinion, its stated fact. Seriously, don't take my word for it: The book is 'Expert .NET 2.0 IL Assembly Language'.. the author is Serge Lidin, HE IS THE DESIGNER OF THE IL LAYER. Most of the language uses very similar constructs.. but NOT ALL. Are you intentionally trolling here?
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With his pants on fire :laugh: I read somewhere that there are things that VB can do and C# can't an vice versa though... Think it had something to do with Errorhandling ?
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How often I have seen something like that. And then the criminal who wrote this thinks he's being treated unjustly and exclaims something like "But it always has worked!". And then try to explain to Mr. Pointy Hair that this mess only pretended to work at best, fell flat on its face and was more busy covering it up than anything else at worst, and that looking away will not solve anything or save us one single cent.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
I hold an A-7 computer expert classification, Commodore. I'm well acquainted with Dr. Daystrom's theories and discoveries. The basic design of all our ship's computers are JavaScript. -
When dealing with a database, sometimes there are bad records. I meant for these try catches to be this way, as I don't care at this point why there would be problems in the data, all other errors are handled.
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Heh? so you don't want your user to know to tell the DBA or YOU that something is wrong between the application and the database it uses? Hiding such things is asking for problems down the road. BIG problems.
It does not use a database.
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You didn't read my post? There are different portions of the IL set used by both languages.. its why they are different. This isn't subject to opinion, its stated fact. Seriously, don't take my word for it: The book is 'Expert .NET 2.0 IL Assembly Language'.. the author is Serge Lidin, HE IS THE DESIGNER OF THE IL LAYER. Most of the language uses very similar constructs.. but NOT ALL. Are you intentionally trolling here?
My original post. Yes not all or Visual basic would be C#.
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no
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My experience of non-programmers is like this: they are good at small things. Ask them for small programs that do simple things and you are golden. Ask them for anything requiring Systems Analysis and real rigor and you've got serious quality problems on your hands. Its not that you can't get it from untrained individuals.. only that it takes a LOT longer. And 'the hardware layer' is where systems programming lives, which is what I do.. 'cellphone era' is a reference to time, not computers. I really don't know what you are trying to say.. As to C# vs. VB and trainability.. nonsense. I've seen folks pick up both. And seriously: what do you have against programmers?
Considering 3 people are doing the work of 30 people, with 5 code monkeys that have no skill, I would say this business model is working.
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Seriously? You are using this is a reason to disparage case sensitivity? This same example goes for case insensitive languages.. all it takes is one programmer using 'width', while another uses something like 'wdth', and we have exactly the same issue. I've seen this so please don't say it isn't possible. Beginning programmers cease being beginners when they start looking at the bigger picture and trying to understand that things like this are possible. Which language they use is inconsequential to that understanding. The issue is one of rigor.. not some language feature. You'll have to try MUCH harder than this to be convincing. And note I have no bone to pick with VB. It has driven a lot of business application development and TOTALLY has its place. Its the 'new Cobol'.. another language much disparaged by many but quite useful in my opinion.
A requirement of programming for me is to use whole words, anyone writing wdth would be fired. Considering the use of full words the with block becomes extremely important for readability. Since the adoption of full words and with blocks we have dropped the use of comments, greatly increasing productivity. Even when we use C# because some of my own programmers have more experience in that one language, so even when we use it having to make sure a variable is typed correctly can hold up experienced C# programmers for lazy mistakes, that simply do not happen in VB. So yes seriously.