How to find a Windows app developer?
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My 2 cents, if you are asking for 5+ years of just developing Windows Desktop Applications(...). I would make: UWP a bonus I would state: Looking for someone who wants to learn Xamarin. I would loosen MVVM to "MVVM, MVC, or similar patterns" Honestly, if the person walked in, was clearly qualified as stated above, interested in learning and move a project to Xamarin... etc. Wouldn't you have hired them already? I try to separate what they "know" from what they "can learn". Give me a developer with core skills and an interest ANY day. Good luck!
Good suggestions, thanks!
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I'd consider remote at this point. PM me if interested.
I'm pretty sure this is it - add remote possible and people will run in your doors. I'm in Germany, where remote job offers are really rare (Home Office Option is quite common - where option means only for after work-hours :( ), and non-web job offers as remote are even rarer. You should know: nowadays desktop developers work mainly in industry, not in software companies - those are almost all web or app (ios/android) as of now. Industry employees are paid damn well, but they are also bound to their production site, because they take care of machinery. So they don't lack work, they don't lack money - but they absolutely lack flexibility - especially the possibility to work remote. Mark your job as remote here on stackoverflow and it will go out by e.g. goremote.io - whose newsletter hits developers around the world. Developers like me, who match your prerequisites word by word. You don't know how many industry workers will be so happy to see that specific field of software development offered as remote. So... See you in the next newsletter! By the way: only US or Europe too...?
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I agree with you but UWP is not a requirement. It's an example of the skillset we're looking for. Our product is actually WPF right now, but we want to port it to Xamarin or maybe Avalonia longer term if that project winds up panning out. And we also just need help maintaining it because out of our three developers, I (the original founder) am the only one who can do WPF. These are the actual requirements posted: - 5+ years’ experience developing Windows desktop (WPF or Windows Forms), UWP, or Xamarin Forms applications using C#/.NET and XAML - Knowledge of the MVVM pattern - Basic understanding of SQL Doesn't seem super esoteric, but I agree it's not what the kids would call trendy.
I've had to learn on my own and work with several languages. The most time consuming part is not learning the language, but learning the application. Your requirement of 5+ years experience in Windows programming seems excessive. I'd cut it to 2 or 3. And you might add Silverlight experience as an option.
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Some advice : firstly, make sure your expectations are reasonable. Do not expect five years of experience in technology that is two years old. This is far more common than you might realize. Secondly, if you are striking out with your current requirements then consider relaxing them a bit. Someone with a lot of related experience can probably learn the specifics you need and do a reasonably good job for you. This is something I have seen a lot of. People sometimes set very high expectations and refuse to moderate them after repeated failure. These are just two things I noticed from my last job search. -edit- I have experienced what you have from both the interviewer and interviewee perspectives and both can be frustrating.
UWP/Windows Store Apps have been around at least 5 years as I was doing Windows Server 2008 R2 management (and development) in 2012.
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Exactly. If the tools are adequate for the task at hand, why change them?
Ad astra - both ways!
OK, you cant do fancy modern UI stuff with it, but quite frankly, I hate the modern UI. Give me grey buttons and edit windows! Thats all I Want! :) I work mostly in the kernel, and that really hasnt changed for ages. In fact since the days of NT!
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UWP/Windows Store Apps have been around at least 5 years as I was doing Windows Server 2008 R2 management (and development) in 2012.
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I would have to say this is age related. Most young developers focus on mobile first since it has the best chance of landing them a job. I would surmise that anyone who knows their way around the Windows API is already tenured and not looking for a job. Not to mention that the learning curve for Windows development is practically vertical. I find that WPF is fantastic and it grows on me each time I use it but it is definitely not the easiest thing to pick up. I've been working with it for years and I still don't half of it.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
I've been doing Windows development since the days of VB5. At almost every stop along the way in my career, whether it's been a web dev position, architect, or even CTO of a startup, I have developed apps, utilities and support tools in Windows Forms, WPF and UWP, not to mention all of my personal projects.
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Peter Moore - Chicago wrote:
Now we need a Windows desktop/UWP/Xamarin developer
IMNSHO, that's why you're not finding anyone. While I know mostly Windows developers, nobody's even remotely interested in UWP. There's more interest in transitioning from Windows to other platforms than UWP. You'd be better off skipping that requirement so you don't scare anyone away. Instead look for someone who can adapt to new technologies.
dandy72 wrote:
IMNSHO, that's why you're not finding anyone. While I know mostly Windows developers, nobody's even remotely interested in UWP. There's more interest in transitioning from Windows to other platforms than UWP. You'd be better off skipping that requirement so you don't scare anyone away. Instead look for someone who can adapt to new technologies.
Sorry, but that's a very short-sighted view. Microsoft has made it very clear that Win32 is an endangered species. Microsoft is still over 90% of the desktop and laptop market (and laptops are making a comeback as people learn that Android tablets are not a suitable replacement). Being able to code for UWP is going to become IMMENSELY important to developers as UWP provides a much richer experience than web apps and they use a very similar model in the architecture of how the apps interact with the business systems. Business are not going to toss out there very, very, very expensive dependency on Microsoft Windows and move to Mac or GNU/Linux. Even Google is getting into the UWP game. They are working with Microsoft for a joint app framework based on UWP that will run on both Android (or its rumored replacement) and Windows 10 with Android providing the mobile support and Windows 10 providing the deeper application support. It's very clear the Google sees the writing on the wall about desktop, and that Microsoft was probably already working on this stuff for quite a while before killing Windows 10 Mobile.
The Sharp Ninja http://www.thesharp.ninja http://thesharp.ninja/the-case-for-universal-apps-on-the-desktop/ http://thesharp.ninja/using-the-mvc-pattern-with-windows-10-universal-applications-part-1/
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I agree with you but UWP is not a requirement. It's an example of the skillset we're looking for. Our product is actually WPF right now, but we want to port it to Xamarin or maybe Avalonia longer term if that project winds up panning out. And we also just need help maintaining it because out of our three developers, I (the original founder) am the only one who can do WPF. These are the actual requirements posted: - 5+ years’ experience developing Windows desktop (WPF or Windows Forms), UWP, or Xamarin Forms applications using C#/.NET and XAML - Knowledge of the MVVM pattern - Basic understanding of SQL Doesn't seem super esoteric, but I agree it's not what the kids would call trendy.
Your first line is why I wouldn't consider it even though I could do what you need. Here is how I see it: 1) One doesn't need five years to understand WPF and MVVM, a couple is plenty for most things. And if your stuff is so esoteric as to need that many specifically in that area I would take a pass unless the esoteric area really appealed to me. 2) Desktop programming is on the decline. Until I am nearing retirement I would prefer to avoid closing technologies. 3) The mention of Windows Forms further makes it look like dead end technology. So I would recommend that you instead look for five years experience in the C# with a solid background in XAML. And, be sure to mention that your company is looking to move toward expanding and that the developer won't be stuck with this as long as she/he stays with your company.
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The young-uns(people under 35 as far as I am concerned) where I work laugh at Windows apps and scoff at anything that is not web development. Having come from a background of winforms development I am probably one of those who might be in demand at some point. That said - any decent web developer(someone experienced in MVC, C# SQL) should have little difficulty developing on a non web system - the thing is finding people willing to do that work is probably not going to be easy ,as the future seems to have been web development for the past 10 years and more.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
GuyThiebaut wrote:
Having come from a background of winforms development I am probably one of those who might be in demand at some point. That said - any decent web developer(someone experienced in MVC, C# SQL) should have little difficulty developing on a non web system - the thing is finding people willing to do that work is probably not going to be easy ,as the future seems to have been web development for the past 10 years and more.
Well, I somewhat agree with this point. Web developers who didn't start with WROX books or Google searches shouldn't have a problem, but those that are less skilled can still succeed with UWP (and even WPF) because the programming model is basically the same, and XAML is a natural transition for HTML developers. The biggest hurdle with going from web to UWP is having to wrap your brain around styling XAML. But once you have the concepts grasped, it's much more powerful than CSS and JavaScript.
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There is a widespread feeling in the developer community that platform dependent desktop development is a dead-end. WinForms/GDI+ is considered a new VB6, WPF is half-baked and hasn't had an update for years, and Xamarin requires GTK. Multi-platform desktop products can now be build using alternatives such as Electron Framework and JavaScript. So, yes, desktop development is fading away from the mainstream. Most newcomers prefer agile'n'web drone career, with just enough back-end knowledge for a hello world service using REST/JSON/OWIN/UNITY/Newtonsoft/oauth/(insert 10 other frameworks) technology. In addition to that, the philosophy of old Windows Desktop development and WPF is radically different. So having a good C/C++ programmer once guaranteed a good WinForms programmer, but does not guarantee good WPF programmer, and vice versa, further cutting the developer stock. Tips? Are your requirements carved in stone? Can you live with another technology? If not -- steal a corporate drone. A lot of us still do maintain line of business apps on WinForms/WPF. We can be found either in IT companies that create LOB software or in corporations maintaining legacy LOB systems. p.s. Don't use web developers. They have radically different mindset, they work with gazillion of frameworks, don't know strong typing, storyboard their life, and inject'n'pattern everything that moves. That's all very nice, and cool too, but you don't use a wrench to cut hair. And beware of "standard control" freaks. They don't innovate and their software looks like living DevExpress mutant from the 90ties, with 20 switchable fluorescent control skins that scare the shit out of you, and without any catchy innovative approach that makes your app stand out. You'll recognize them by bloated data-modeling and raping you with screen wireframes.
Tomaž Štih wrote:
p.s. Don't use web developers. They have radically different mindset, they work with gazillion of frameworks, don't know strong typing, storyboard their life, and inject'n'pattern everything that moves. That's all very nice, and cool too, but you don't use a wrench to cut hair. And beware of "standard control" freaks. They don't innovate and their software looks like living DevExpress mutant from the 90ties, with 20 switchable fluorescent control skins that scare the sh*t out of you, and without any catchy innovative approach that makes your app stand out. You'll recognize them by bloated data-modeling and raping you with screen wireframes.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more. WPF lends itself well to multi-tiered architecture, but UWP is even better. As a matter of fact, following Microsoft's development guidelines for UWP provides a VERY rich and consistent user interface paradigm (something that iOS, but no so much Android thrives upon) which will become very natural in the future, especially since the Win32 versions of Office are about to become extinct. Web development of SPA and ASP.Net MVC is not much different than UWP development. With UWP now being run from DotNet Core, you can even use that back end and put it in the app and have a distributed app that is self contained and can work offline, simply syncing with servers as networking becomes available. You CANNOT do that easily with Web, and hardly anybody does it with mobile. UWP is far more powerful than any other framework out there. Also, with WebAssembly starting to take off, the days of Javascript/Bootstrap/Angular hell are numbered, and those same skills will be directly applicable to UWP as much a WebAssembly. And those "dinosaur" C++ developers have a VERY good platform with UWP to continue their careers as UWP has a very good support for COM objects interacting with the new Windows API from C++.
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I don't know about windows, I work on iOS and Android apps, but one day out of sheer curiosity, I have tried to replicate an HTML5/CSS3/JavaScript(with addons) UI with native elements. Result: disaster, the HTML5/CSS3/Javascript combination happens to be the best and fastest UI platform. Even microsoft tried at one point WinJS I think.
throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.
Stable Genius wrote:
I don't know about windows, I work on iOS and Android apps, but one day out of sheer curiosity, I have tried to replicate an HTML5/CSS3/JavaScript(with addons) UI with native elements. Result: disaster, the HTML5/CSS3/Javascript combination happens to be the best and fastest UI platform.
iOS and Android apps are not as fully baked as UWP is. Neither uses XAML (unless you are using Xamarin Forms) and that's a BIG disadvantage for them. The AXML paradigm for Android is horrible. XAML is much more natural for web developers. The biggest hurdle is wrapping your brain around styling with XAML, but once you get it, CSS sucks. Now, if someone doesn't WANT to learn a typed language such as C# or C++, then that's not a fault of the platform, but of the developer. Personally, I HATE Javascript development, but I do it when I have to.
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dandy72 wrote:
IMNSHO, that's why you're not finding anyone. While I know mostly Windows developers, nobody's even remotely interested in UWP. There's more interest in transitioning from Windows to other platforms than UWP. You'd be better off skipping that requirement so you don't scare anyone away. Instead look for someone who can adapt to new technologies.
Sorry, but that's a very short-sighted view. Microsoft has made it very clear that Win32 is an endangered species. Microsoft is still over 90% of the desktop and laptop market (and laptops are making a comeback as people learn that Android tablets are not a suitable replacement). Being able to code for UWP is going to become IMMENSELY important to developers as UWP provides a much richer experience than web apps and they use a very similar model in the architecture of how the apps interact with the business systems. Business are not going to toss out there very, very, very expensive dependency on Microsoft Windows and move to Mac or GNU/Linux. Even Google is getting into the UWP game. They are working with Microsoft for a joint app framework based on UWP that will run on both Android (or its rumored replacement) and Windows 10 with Android providing the mobile support and Windows 10 providing the deeper application support. It's very clear the Google sees the writing on the wall about desktop, and that Microsoft was probably already working on this stuff for quite a while before killing Windows 10 Mobile.
The Sharp Ninja http://www.thesharp.ninja http://thesharp.ninja/the-case-for-universal-apps-on-the-desktop/ http://thesharp.ninja/using-the-mvc-pattern-with-windows-10-universal-applications-part-1/
Sharp Ninja wrote:
Microsoft has made it very clear that Win32 is an endangered species
Microsoft also thought it would all be replaced by Metro apps by now. And UWP is little more than the natural progression of that. Remind me, how's the Windows Store doing? Yeah, the writing may be on the wall for Win32 apps, but nobody's impressed with the alternative MS is proposing.
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dandy72 wrote:
IMNSHO
I had to use a search engine for that one... we need a mouseover window to translate these slangs. Best Wishes, -David Delaune
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Is it me or are Windows application developers becoming an endangered species? My company needed a web developer earlier this year and found a great one in only about two weeks through ZipRecruiter. Now we need a Windows desktop/UWP/Xamarin developer and haven't gotten a single qualified applicant. (Plenty of people with web experience apply, apparently without reading the job requirements). Has anyone else gone through this? Any tips?
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Sharp Ninja wrote:
Microsoft has made it very clear that Win32 is an endangered species
Microsoft also thought it would all be replaced by Metro apps by now. And UWP is little more than the natural progression of that. Remind me, how's the Windows Store doing? Yeah, the writing may be on the wall for Win32 apps, but nobody's impressed with the alternative MS is proposing.
The only people who aren't impressed with UWP have never used it, and the Windows Store has many, many, many quality apps in it.
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Is it me or are Windows application developers becoming an endangered species? My company needed a web developer earlier this year and found a great one in only about two weeks through ZipRecruiter. Now we need a Windows desktop/UWP/Xamarin developer and haven't gotten a single qualified applicant. (Plenty of people with web experience apply, apparently without reading the job requirements). Has anyone else gone through this? Any tips?
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Windows Desktop Universal Windows Platform Xamarin You're looking for a mobile developer on two platforms who also knows the Win32/64 API. You're looking for three different detailed skill sets.
Did you not see the word "OR"?
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Is it me or are Windows application developers becoming an endangered species? My company needed a web developer earlier this year and found a great one in only about two weeks through ZipRecruiter. Now we need a Windows desktop/UWP/Xamarin developer and haven't gotten a single qualified applicant. (Plenty of people with web experience apply, apparently without reading the job requirements). Has anyone else gone through this? Any tips?
I used to consider myself one, but there are never any opportunities, so I've had to go web. What's funny is your comment about applicants no reading the job requirements. Because I don't think that I've met a recruiter who has read my resume before calling or emailing.
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The only people who aren't impressed with UWP have never used it, and the Windows Store has many, many, many quality apps in it.
Sharp Ninja wrote:
the Windows Store has many, many, many quality apps in it
That's a well-kept secret if I've ever heard one. Every time the Windows Store is brought up in an article, invariably, even amongst life-long Windows tech journalists, it's to deride it.