Dumbing down code so it can be maintained by junior devs
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What is your job, to turn out up to the last minute code or up to the last minute product?
Munchies_Matt wrote:
What is your job, to turn out up to the last minute code or up to the last minute product?
For my client, we pretty much make sure we're using the latest 3rd party library (in this case DevExpress) and the latest development tools and database from Microsoft. The only exception is maintaining an application in VS2015 with an older version of DevExpress because some of my client's clients are, believe it or not, still using XP, but we're working on that. :) Other places, I've recently experienced using VS2008 to write SSRS reports against a database that VS2008 / SSRS doesn't support (VS2008 only support SQL Server 2005 and below) so you can't use the query designer tool (hand code queries instead) and requires opening up VS2015 to commit the report in TFS, because again VS2008 doesn't support the version of TFS being used. Said company was until recently still building with C# 5 (or was it 4?) and .NET 4.5.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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I had that once, my reply. "So you want me to do your job of balancing the budget so you can save money by not having to train them, and thus increase profit? Do I get a pay rise and a position in your office if I'm working the same job as you?" The discussion was very quickly terminated, and the request abandoned. I left voluntarily 2 months later :-)
Peter Shaw wrote:
Do I get a pay rise and a position in your office if I'm working the same job as you?"
:laugh: Good one!
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I slept on this (not really) and this morning I came up with another likely motive for this. Since the code is made so thoroughly easy to follow (and much larger do to inefficiency), we have two bonus' from the management point of view: 1) The impression, do to sheer bulk, that more work was done 2) More time for the Jr. Dev's can be sent out for coffee See - there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for everything.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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That is a valid perspective, and further one could say that junior developers need opportunities to learn and not have their hand held too much; and there must be an expectation that developers meet minimum requirements of understanding many aspects of software development. Code reviews are an effective way to share knowledge and help develop junior devs. So, for balance, let's look at the other side. Companies invest in and employ devs to develop software assets. These assets are important to the companies value/revenue/future etc. So naturally, maintainability is a hugely important attribute of company assets. And there are many aspects to maintainability of course. I would say that if someone is asking you to "dumb down" code for easier maintenance, perhaps that is just a diplomatic way of saying that your code is not readable/maintainable. There is an old school rule that when writing code, it should be readable by other people, including yourself at some time in the future. Since I am no expert in LINQ, for example, I will often write code the simple / old way, and when Re-Sharper suggests a conversion to LINQ, I will have Re-Sharper do the conversion, and then decide if it is easier or harder to understand at a glance, and often I will undo the conversion. Complicated or unreadable code is not "better" code. (obviously there is a minimum complexity required for every different problem/algorithm). Well, anyway, I would tell your bosses that any policy that forbids using C# 7 syntax, for example, is a bad policy since every new version of c# provides syntax that is better and/or more maintainable. Cheers, Anthony
soulesurfer wrote:
So, for balance, let's look at the other side.
You definitely have a point, and I will definitely veer toward maintainability. However, it really isn't about code (even though my subject line says "code") but about a lack of training, much with regards to what has been around in the .NET framework for years. Even common practices like DRY, writing small functions, decoupling, etc., those are things, as you say, a junior dev learns through code reviews (not just their own code but the code the senior devs produce) but such code reviews are completely lacking. :sigh:
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Economy is integral part of our jobs. At university I was taught that an engineer is a person who can do for $500 what every damn fool can do for $1.000. Best way to include junior engineers seems to be structuring software to allow pluggable codelets. Usually in places where there is a significant quantity of simple constructs to be programmed, such as data entry screens. We go as far as forcing engineers into simplistic conventions by creating frameworks that do not work unless convention is followed. But I've never heard of a case where one would simplify entire software. There are places that should not be touched by junior software engineers.
Tomaž Štih wrote:
Best way to include junior engineers seems to be structuring software to allow pluggable codelets.
I also experience a lack of consideration for a re-use library. So I see, for example, validation of XML data done a different dozen ways, error handling the same, conversions, formatting, etc. A library is supposed to help with consistency, but again, a junior dev rarely thinks in terms of re-use or consistency. And when the entire team is made up of junior devs, well then.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I'm convinced that things like this can only happen to you :)
This space for rent
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If you are told not to make use of good LINQ or extension methods, I do not think the resulting code would be any easier to understand. If in these cases the code is well commented, it is, in fact, compact and easier to understand. OTOH I agree with reflection (people tend to steer clear from it stating it is too powerful for its own good :laugh: ) since not many people know it. Asking developers to "dumbed down" code shows the lack of trust(maybe they have their reasons) in the new recruits. I do not think the code is the problem here. I would suggest educating the newer members of your team at least the "features" that are commonly used in the project.
I am not the one who knocks. I never knock. In fact, I hate knocking.
GKP1992 wrote:
I would suggest educating the newer members of your team at least the "features" that are commonly used in the project.
Two things I've been noticing. There also seems to be a lack of motivation to learn from the senior people, and management is clueless so any "motivation" from that direction doesn't happen either. It seems that the young people nowadays have a different focus. The days of the "computer club" where people got together to learn things are long gone. Maybe in places like Google or Microsoft that kind of culture still exists, but I don't often see it in the "meat and potatoes" companies.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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I understand both sides (partially): - dev side: yes it can make sense to use the new and shiny constructs/features of a programming language. No problem with that. But did you make an effort to add comments to clarify the magic shorthand that follows? Or are you the kind of "I only write readable code" developer? I had to modify a program and after the initial "who wrote this crap", I realized it was an old program I wrote. So "dumbing down" should perhaps be perceived as KIS: keep it simple. - management side: devs are an unreliable bunch of nerds so if they leave, we can't afford to stand still for months just because some star-programmer found it beneath his dignity to add comments and only wanted to use exotic libraries. F them and send it to India (so they can mess it up). Now I'm off to my micromanagement course
pivertt wrote:
So "dumbing down" should perhaps be perceived as KIS: keep it simple.
Agreed -- simple IS best, but how you achieve simple can leveraged with knowing the framework and the language.
pivertt wrote:
we can't afford to stand still for months just because some star-programmer found it beneath his dignity to add comments and only wanted to use exotic libraries.
Heh. My concept of a star programmer is one that writes maintainable code - sure, it might require a junior dev to have to hit the books to learn something about the framework or library, but the code should not be "exotic" - as in incomprehensible and cryptic, even to another senior dev!
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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How are juniors expected to learn when nothing will challenge them?
Tinus Smit wrote:
How are juniors expected to learn when nothing will challenge them?
How are juniors expected to learn when they have no motivation to learn? Sad but true.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
What is your job, to turn out up to the last minute code or up to the last minute product?
For my client, we pretty much make sure we're using the latest 3rd party library (in this case DevExpress) and the latest development tools and database from Microsoft. The only exception is maintaining an application in VS2015 with an older version of DevExpress because some of my client's clients are, believe it or not, still using XP, but we're working on that. :) Other places, I've recently experienced using VS2008 to write SSRS reports against a database that VS2008 / SSRS doesn't support (VS2008 only support SQL Server 2005 and below) so you can't use the query designer tool (hand code queries instead) and requires opening up VS2015 to commit the report in TFS, because again VS2008 doesn't support the version of TFS being used. Said company was until recently still building with C# 5 (or was it 4?) and .NET 4.5.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
You havent answered the question. Is a carpenters job to make furniture, or to use the latest saw, plane, and screwdriver?
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How does a junior learning something help the company's bottom line? If a junior programmer can understand and maintain every part of the company's codebase, there is no requirement for learning and no requirement for senior (expensive) programmers. Just sayin' ...
DerekTP123 wrote:
If a junior programmer can understand and maintain every part of the company's codebase, there is no requirement for learning and no requirement for senior (expensive) programmers.
Because eventually, no senior dev will want to work for the company, leaving junior devs to maintain a code base that is metastasizing into an umaintainable, bug ridden slimy blob. At which point management contracts an outside job shop to come in and rewrite the software because a) it's broken and b) it can't support the demands of the users.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
1. It would be unprofessional to write anything but the most efficient code possible. 2. How would a junior programmer ever progress if not presented with more challenging code. 3. It would not be possible to determine exactly what each junior programmer was capable of until they were presented with something they could not cope with alone. So how would you know how much to dumb down. 4. If I were a senior programmer on this team, I would take this as my cue to look for another job. 5. If I were a junior programmer on this team, I would take this as my cue to look for another job.
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Congratulate yourself, you have outgrown company you are working now ;) As someone who just recently started to discover beauty and efficiency of simplicity, I think that writting good simple (some may call it dumb) code is harder than putting together some popular/advanced patterns and new language features to hide code smells and call it a modern code base. Good dumb (readable and maintainable) code is not a task for junior dev. Looks like company doesn't understadnd what they are asking.
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You havent answered the question. Is a carpenters job to make furniture, or to use the latest saw, plane, and screwdriver?
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Is a carpenters job to make furniture, or to use the latest saw, plane, and screwdriver?
To make furniture. But...when the hand-me-down tools are worn out, or there's a more efficient tool, or a specialized tool for just that particular requirement, then one should not try to "get away" with using "the wrong" tool. :) [edit]And often, a new tool requires training. And new safety protocols! :laugh: [/edit]
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I would say if the code isn't easy to read, then all the devs should read clean code and working with legacy code. Doesn't matter how complex the logic is, it should be readable or you're doing devs who read your code a disservice. Long chained linq is an abomination. You should decompose it to individual functions that return IQueryable that have a name that describe what it does, so the original linq reads like a nice sentence. Devs spend 90% of the time reading code, not writing it. Shouldn't you write it so 90% of the rest of your job is easier and make everybody more efficient and a better developer?
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I haven't logged in to this site in years but this came up in my newsletter and I had to respond. This is a thing in the industry now. My experience with this most recently was at Dupont/Dow Pioneer in Johnston, IA. The code was intentionally dumbed down to accommodate for the least capable people on the team. This meant that many important aspects of development were not taken into account like transactions and idempotency, for example. Dependency Injection/Inversion of Control was a big no no because "there was too much magic" and for some reason it was considered easier to change a dozen or so constructors to account for one new parameter. We were told not to use LINQ because "it was too slow" (this was a web app used by dealers throughout the country sometimes with only 2G internet available). We used vanilla JS because it's what most people knew even though the front end code was a complete mess. One team took the initiative and moved to TypeScript which set a precedent and my followed suit. There was some initial complaining but quickly that subsided when we saw how much cleaner our code became. I thought we were all supposed to get better at this stuff so we have the "rising tide lifts all boats" thing going on but it seems like the industry would rather sink to the bottom like a dying shark. For my particular experience I believe the consulting firms were more to blame than the actual company itself. You see in some markets it is very difficult to find quality people so these firms have to place anyone they can even if they are unskilled. At some point the skilled get overwhelmed by the unskilled through sheer numbers alone. We know what happens next; Dead Sea Effect, Brooks Law etc etc.
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Let me rephrase the question you ask: Who do we write code for: - The compiler? - Ourselves? - The next developer? - The Company we work for? At a high level, ALL of them. And importantly, the company claims this as an asset. So, you get a Really High IQ individual come in, and do COOL things in the code that few people understand. (Terry B. in my old PDP days. What he was trying to do became clear to me 2-3 years later when I got my degree! But his code was buggy AND hard to work with, so it was tossed.) I wonder if you are doing recular Code Reviews? What is the process for introducing new concepts, and documenting them in the Corporate Wiki? As a Manager I understand the company perspective. Once you leave, you assume the code will live forever without changes... And it was easy... to you... Given that you write code for ALL of those vested interests... I think adding Code Reviews, and introducing (and documenting/explaining how these fancy fangled things work) will eventually drag the organization closer to your level, and leave something of true value behind. BTW, when you do a Code Review, and nobody else understands the code... it's not really being reviewed. Also, Code Reviews are a great way to disseminate that knowledge to the newer programmers (and yes, the manager). I can barely read a Linq statement, but I don't code in C# often, and have not used them personally. I don't stop others, but I do make them explain the flow... And we review the naming and variables used within...
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I hate to throw rain on your perceptions but writing code for the least experienced in your team is what you are supposed to be doing. It is one of the first axioms that maturing developers should be picking up. The idea that you want to write code your own way using whatever complexities you deem fit only drives the cost of maintaining your applications up. If everyone in your team is familiar with LINQ for example, than you should be free to use it. If they aren't than you should be using what they do know in its place unless these team members are provided the time to learn how to use such technologiess efficiently. In addition, code is supposed to be as simplistic as possible so anyone can easily absorb it when it is necessary for new people to pick up on your work. Most of the so called latest and cool technologies are just fluff or junk technologies that do the same thing we have been doing for years with older, more mature technologies, yet far more complex since the younger professionals seem to be masochistic in their outlooks on what makes up good coding techniques. Like with Linux, harder and more complex is seemingly better than simple and intuitive... :confused:
Steve Naidamast Sr. Software Engineer Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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convert it all to visual basic: boss should have no problems with a simpler programming language.
This internet thing is amazing! Letting people use it: worst idea ever!
Visual Basic is a simpler, easier to read language that can do anything that C# can do — both are converted to the same "executable" language. For highly regulated industries where audits of all kinds are a constant interruption, it has the advantage of being understandable to the auditors. I would rather code in Visual Basic and get something done than waste spend my time explaining C# code to accountants!
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock