Dumbing down code so it can be maintained by junior devs
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
What is your job, to turn out up to the last minute code or up to the last minute product?
For my client, we pretty much make sure we're using the latest 3rd party library (in this case DevExpress) and the latest development tools and database from Microsoft. The only exception is maintaining an application in VS2015 with an older version of DevExpress because some of my client's clients are, believe it or not, still using XP, but we're working on that. :) Other places, I've recently experienced using VS2008 to write SSRS reports against a database that VS2008 / SSRS doesn't support (VS2008 only support SQL Server 2005 and below) so you can't use the query designer tool (hand code queries instead) and requires opening up VS2015 to commit the report in TFS, because again VS2008 doesn't support the version of TFS being used. Said company was until recently still building with C# 5 (or was it 4?) and .NET 4.5.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
You havent answered the question. Is a carpenters job to make furniture, or to use the latest saw, plane, and screwdriver?
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How does a junior learning something help the company's bottom line? If a junior programmer can understand and maintain every part of the company's codebase, there is no requirement for learning and no requirement for senior (expensive) programmers. Just sayin' ...
DerekTP123 wrote:
If a junior programmer can understand and maintain every part of the company's codebase, there is no requirement for learning and no requirement for senior (expensive) programmers.
Because eventually, no senior dev will want to work for the company, leaving junior devs to maintain a code base that is metastasizing into an umaintainable, bug ridden slimy blob. At which point management contracts an outside job shop to come in and rewrite the software because a) it's broken and b) it can't support the demands of the users.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
1. It would be unprofessional to write anything but the most efficient code possible. 2. How would a junior programmer ever progress if not presented with more challenging code. 3. It would not be possible to determine exactly what each junior programmer was capable of until they were presented with something they could not cope with alone. So how would you know how much to dumb down. 4. If I were a senior programmer on this team, I would take this as my cue to look for another job. 5. If I were a junior programmer on this team, I would take this as my cue to look for another job.
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Congratulate yourself, you have outgrown company you are working now ;) As someone who just recently started to discover beauty and efficiency of simplicity, I think that writting good simple (some may call it dumb) code is harder than putting together some popular/advanced patterns and new language features to hide code smells and call it a modern code base. Good dumb (readable and maintainable) code is not a task for junior dev. Looks like company doesn't understadnd what they are asking.
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You havent answered the question. Is a carpenters job to make furniture, or to use the latest saw, plane, and screwdriver?
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Is a carpenters job to make furniture, or to use the latest saw, plane, and screwdriver?
To make furniture. But...when the hand-me-down tools are worn out, or there's a more efficient tool, or a specialized tool for just that particular requirement, then one should not try to "get away" with using "the wrong" tool. :) [edit]And often, a new tool requires training. And new safety protocols! :laugh: [/edit]
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I would say if the code isn't easy to read, then all the devs should read clean code and working with legacy code. Doesn't matter how complex the logic is, it should be readable or you're doing devs who read your code a disservice. Long chained linq is an abomination. You should decompose it to individual functions that return IQueryable that have a name that describe what it does, so the original linq reads like a nice sentence. Devs spend 90% of the time reading code, not writing it. Shouldn't you write it so 90% of the rest of your job is easier and make everybody more efficient and a better developer?
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I haven't logged in to this site in years but this came up in my newsletter and I had to respond. This is a thing in the industry now. My experience with this most recently was at Dupont/Dow Pioneer in Johnston, IA. The code was intentionally dumbed down to accommodate for the least capable people on the team. This meant that many important aspects of development were not taken into account like transactions and idempotency, for example. Dependency Injection/Inversion of Control was a big no no because "there was too much magic" and for some reason it was considered easier to change a dozen or so constructors to account for one new parameter. We were told not to use LINQ because "it was too slow" (this was a web app used by dealers throughout the country sometimes with only 2G internet available). We used vanilla JS because it's what most people knew even though the front end code was a complete mess. One team took the initiative and moved to TypeScript which set a precedent and my followed suit. There was some initial complaining but quickly that subsided when we saw how much cleaner our code became. I thought we were all supposed to get better at this stuff so we have the "rising tide lifts all boats" thing going on but it seems like the industry would rather sink to the bottom like a dying shark. For my particular experience I believe the consulting firms were more to blame than the actual company itself. You see in some markets it is very difficult to find quality people so these firms have to place anyone they can even if they are unskilled. At some point the skilled get overwhelmed by the unskilled through sheer numbers alone. We know what happens next; Dead Sea Effect, Brooks Law etc etc.
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Let me rephrase the question you ask: Who do we write code for: - The compiler? - Ourselves? - The next developer? - The Company we work for? At a high level, ALL of them. And importantly, the company claims this as an asset. So, you get a Really High IQ individual come in, and do COOL things in the code that few people understand. (Terry B. in my old PDP days. What he was trying to do became clear to me 2-3 years later when I got my degree! But his code was buggy AND hard to work with, so it was tossed.) I wonder if you are doing recular Code Reviews? What is the process for introducing new concepts, and documenting them in the Corporate Wiki? As a Manager I understand the company perspective. Once you leave, you assume the code will live forever without changes... And it was easy... to you... Given that you write code for ALL of those vested interests... I think adding Code Reviews, and introducing (and documenting/explaining how these fancy fangled things work) will eventually drag the organization closer to your level, and leave something of true value behind. BTW, when you do a Code Review, and nobody else understands the code... it's not really being reviewed. Also, Code Reviews are a great way to disseminate that knowledge to the newer programmers (and yes, the manager). I can barely read a Linq statement, but I don't code in C# often, and have not used them personally. I don't stop others, but I do make them explain the flow... And we review the naming and variables used within...
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I hate to throw rain on your perceptions but writing code for the least experienced in your team is what you are supposed to be doing. It is one of the first axioms that maturing developers should be picking up. The idea that you want to write code your own way using whatever complexities you deem fit only drives the cost of maintaining your applications up. If everyone in your team is familiar with LINQ for example, than you should be free to use it. If they aren't than you should be using what they do know in its place unless these team members are provided the time to learn how to use such technologiess efficiently. In addition, code is supposed to be as simplistic as possible so anyone can easily absorb it when it is necessary for new people to pick up on your work. Most of the so called latest and cool technologies are just fluff or junk technologies that do the same thing we have been doing for years with older, more mature technologies, yet far more complex since the younger professionals seem to be masochistic in their outlooks on what makes up good coding techniques. Like with Linux, harder and more complex is seemingly better than simple and intuitive... :confused:
Steve Naidamast Sr. Software Engineer Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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convert it all to visual basic: boss should have no problems with a simpler programming language.
This internet thing is amazing! Letting people use it: worst idea ever!
Visual Basic is a simpler, easier to read language that can do anything that C# can do — both are converted to the same "executable" language. For highly regulated industries where audits of all kinds are a constant interruption, it has the advantage of being understandable to the auditors. I would rather code in Visual Basic and get something done than waste spend my time explaining C# code to accountants!
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Conversely, how does having first-class code help the business, compared to having "mediocre" code? If the end result works, and doesn't require massively more expensive hardware to run at an appropriate speed, then why not? "Simple" code helps the business by reducing staff costs, increasing the pool of potential recruits, reducing "up to speed" time for new joiners ... all these things are helping the business far more than using Linq where it's not necessary. Each new language feature or concept is another thing to learn and get expert in - or not. Keeping things "simple" with a smaller subset arguably allows all staff members to become "expert" in the entire gamut of techniques, and therefore able to pick up and work on any bit of the code, regardless of their seniority / experience. Maybe playing devil's advocate a bit here, but if you look at things from management's point of view, there's something to be said for it. And if it means experienced (expensive) developers leaving in frustration - to be replaced by cheaper juniors - that's yet another win for the bottom line.
Good point, well made. :thumbsup: My response would be that first class code should still be simple and robust.
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer. The End
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Dear oh god. How does that help business? What is a software engineers job, to turn out the latest code or the latest product? Just what do you think the customer is actually buying ffs?
Munchies_Matt wrote:
What is a software engineers job, to turn out the latest code or the latest product?
No, to turn out the best, most efficient, mist robust code. Otherwise, we might as well hire a bunch of script-kiddies and cut them loose on our latest trading platform.
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer. The End
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abmv wrote:
Maybe a few walk-through session for the junior devs would be adequate.
Yeah, unfortunately, management's view of training consists of watching Pluralsight videos rather than learning things directly from the senior devs on code that is actually relevant to the company and job.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
My boss gives me grief for daring to read and understand CodeProject articles to improve my skills on company time!
The ironic thing is that I limit my learning to material that I could apply at work, where I a limited to Visual Studio 2010 and SQL Server 2012! My desktop is 2 gigs of memory with 72 gigs of disk space. He is the kind of boss who does not trust his underlings to work while not in his sight
At home, I currently use Visual Studio 2017 (community edition) and I just installed SQL Server 2017 (developer edition) on a desktop with 8 gigs of memory and a terabyte of disk space.
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
How about dumbing down code so that it can be understood by senior devs?
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Ever been asked to do this? I seem to be encountering this more and more -- the last company I worked for, I left because that was stated explicitly by the CTO as the new policy. What would you do if you were told to do that? And by dumbing down, I mean doing things like avoiding LINQ (except for basic things), metadata, reflection, extension methods, and any of the C# 7.0 language features. It seems that long gone are the days when companies actually invest in keeping developer skills up to par with the technologies the company uses. Or even more amusingly (not) keeping those technologies up to date.
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Well, I'm all for keeping things as simple as possible when developing code but "dumbing it down" by avoiding the use of a technology that might help keep it simple, or retroactively doing it just so that some junior developer could understand it ... no.
If you think hiring a professional is expensive, wait until you hire an amateur! - Red Adair
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I've been managing various dev teams (java, .net) for around 15 years now. I would have never asked my dev's to dumb code down but I would suggest that there have been occasions where devs would use a new tech or dev method not because it was needed or warranted but because it was an opportunity to learn something new. The cost of that is a general slowdown in the output of your team as the overhead of working out how the new stuff works start to impact timelines and commitments. If the new way genuinely is better then I think its an easy discussion because the cost/benefit argument should win. I encourage my devs to focus on that and we haven't really had this issue.
You sound like the type of boss I would like to work for!
If your company is in central Texas and you are hiring, please tell me! I would be delighted to apply!
__________________ Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now. © 2009, Rex Hammock
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
What is a software engineers job, to turn out the latest code or the latest product?
No, to turn out the best, most efficient, mist robust code. Otherwise, we might as well hire a bunch of script-kiddies and cut them loose on our latest trading platform.
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer. The End
Why is code efficiency important in a product? For that matter robustness. What is robust code (as opposed to a robust product)?
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Why is code efficiency important in a product? For that matter robustness. What is robust code (as opposed to a robust product)?
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Why is code efficiency important in a product?
Why would you want inefficient code in your product?
Munchies_Matt wrote:
What is robust code (as opposed to a robust product)?
Seriously? You set out to write code that is not robust? Why would you do that?
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer. The End