No Initiative. :(
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's mind
Reminds me of working for the ministry of defence. Dull, utterly dull. No zing, no 'go for it' mentality.
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Years ago I worked for the railroad and the whole shop was writing code in C. I taught classes, wrote a large class library and ended up writing a huge piece of code in C++ but do you think I could draw them away from C? No, I gave up!
Got my site back up after my time in the woods! JaxCoder.com
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Everybody also agrees that World Peace would be a good thing but...
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
world peace isn't practical, but web site modernization is. :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Me, Industrial sector, VB6, C++. Same story.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
Amazing how resistant humans are to change.
Got my site back up after my time in the woods! JaxCoder.com
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world peace isn't practical, but web site modernization is. :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
but web site modernization is
You don't stroll in Q&A often, don't you? ;P
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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Did you take source code home or just start from scratch? Also, does the contract specify what technologies the application is to be built from? If so, that may be a stumbling block until contract renewal time anyway. Wait a second, didn't this new assignment mean you were the tech lead?
I took some screen shots of the current app for layout reference and menu contents, but that's all. My new version has four user-selectable "themes" (selection is stored in the database): 0) Dark with some layout changes 1) Steel/slate blue with the same layout changes (the Air Force likes blue stuff) 2) Lite using the same colors as the original layout, but with same element layout changes as in the dark theme 3) The original layout with no changes - looks almost identical to the original site (has some spacing differences associated with using bootstrap/telerik that I'm going to try to resolve). This only required a couple of different partial views. The layout changes mentioned above include relocation of some of the elements to reclaim vertical screen space, and remove unnecessary text from the screen during normal use. The site will also be mobile aware, but since our minimum width is 1024px (because iPad, and we won't be supporting phone screen sizes), I'm not sure if that's a real selling point. I also have a second project that combines all of the apps in the suite into a single app, and uses areas for segregation of app-specific concerns. This will reduce the overall footprint on the server (because there will be only one copy of things like the Telerik library), and should make deployment easier besides. It also has the same theming stuff in it. I'm pretty close to giving a demonstration, but now I don't know if it's even going to be worth my time. And that's a cryin' f*ckin' shame. The contract does not specify the stack we use. Yes, I'm the lead, and I was told I could redesign it if I felt the need. I feel the need. The main problem is that I feel like the rest of the apps have to come along for the ride, if for no other reason than to have everything look/act the same. THAT is the part that's going to be the hard sell.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Amazing how resistant humans are to change.
Got my site back up after my time in the woods! JaxCoder.com
Mostly it's those who "learnt to code" and not how to design, how that magic box under their desk works and how to manage a project. Those are people that are scared ****less of change because they know they don't have neither the knowledge basis nor the ba**s to move on to something new and more appropriate. Then there are the manglers, pardon, managers, who can't see farther than two inches after their noses and understand jack s**t about what they're managing (and Jack is out of town).
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Been there, done that. I worked for government contractors for 10 years and got tired of finally getting to develop something unique and fun just to have it shelved in the end due to politics. Finally, I landed a really good job with a commercial company. The development isn't cutting edge, but at least it will get used.
"When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others; same thing when you are stupid." Ignorant - An individual without knowledge, but is willing to learn. Stupid - An individual without knowledge and is incapable of learning. Idiot - An individual without knowledge and allows social media to do the thinking for them.
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013I was hoping that the ESA would be an inspiring, even exciting, place to work, but it was just as you say it is there. I lost count of how many times I was told I would have to "pace myself". I always pace myself. It's just that my pace is 20x faster than they're willing to go.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013It sounds like you may just have to do most of all the work yourself! Good luck! :) My younger brother retired a few years ago from a civil service ANG desk job. After 25 years, he said he couldn't stand the boredom anymore, stating that an ordinary day required around 1-2 hours of work.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013I've worked at a place like that. The people there were programmers, but somehow not because they liked it. We got a one hour presentation on .NET Core and Docker during work hours and one guy said "I'm not going, I really couldn't care less about, what, .NET Core? Docker? Whatever..." It was in the same building, in his boss time (and so paid by the boss), but he simply didn't care enough to get off his ass :wtf: Whenever I introduced something "new" to the team, like stored procedures, delegates and the JavaScript "module" pattern (none actually new), they (that one guy in particular) would become pissed, make a big deal out of it, and wouldn't rest until the code was how he wanted it. In my experience such workplaces are toxic. Get out before you become like them :~
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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THE TEAM is a lie. Luckily I am now working in a Team, capital T. A refreshing change after 7 years of mostly solo work.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
den2k88 wrote:
THE TEAM is a lie.
Especially when THE TEAM actually is a couple of jerks who happen to sit in the same room and only accidentally open the same project at the same time.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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I deal with the same thing although not at a Federal level, so I completely empathize with your situation. I've got a lot of thoughts on the subject but would rather not have them discovered by my current employer. :sigh: The good thing about it is that you are almost guaranteed that you will never be let go. We've got contractors who have been here 20+ years. From my point of view that isn't a contract, that is an employee.
RJOberg wrote:
We've got contractors who have been here 20+ years. From my point of view that isn't a contract, that is an employee.
The US Internal Revenue Service (tax bureau) would say the same thing.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013I worked at a place as a contractor and one of the full time programmers complained to our manager that why should I be paid half as much again as he was when I was only there for the same amount of time. His reply was, "It's reasonable that he be paid more than you because he does five times as much work as you do in the same time period!" - which might not have been the best thing to say but he was a young, inexperienced manager - and it was true! In actuality, I was paid more than double what he was, but I wasn't going to mention that to him. It was easy to outperform him since he spent most of his day reading the newspaper (pre-internet days) and taking long "smoke-breaks". He did nothing to educate himself or learn new anything. I could never understand why he chose to be a programmer since he seemed to hate it.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013I work now at a huge company. It's one of the biggest private companies in the nation. I fully expected a rather large and ponderous bunch of managers who rarely went out on a limb. The truth is quite the opposite. They embrace change when there is a strong likely of benefit from it. I talked them into a year+ long development project in a radically new direction and they eagerly jumped on it. They're sending me to a conference next month about it. The curious thing is the company is very antiquated about some things on a philosophical basis. For example, all purchase orders must be submitted in paper. None of this new-fangled electronic stuff for POs. So a guy made a spreadsheet and submitting a PO now (for us) is e-mailing the spreadsheet to the appropriate person and printing it out for the piece of paper. The PO then has to be hand-entered into "the system" which is an old AS400 program with a console interface. They refuse to have a windows interface for it. That part isn't exactly philosophical - it's the result of an obstructionist curmudgeon who is the VP of IT. Neither of my bosses can stand him. Incidentally, that's how short the chain of command is - I have a direct boss, there is a division manager, and he answers to one of the company owners.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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den2k88 wrote:
THE TEAM is a lie.
Especially when THE TEAM actually is a couple of jerks who happen to sit in the same room and only accidentally open the same project at the same time.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Been there, done that. I worked for government contractors for 10 years and got tired of finally getting to develop something unique and fun just to have it shelved in the end due to politics. Finally, I landed a really good job with a commercial company. The development isn't cutting edge, but at least it will get used.
"When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others; same thing when you are stupid." Ignorant - An individual without knowledge, but is willing to learn. Stupid - An individual without knowledge and is incapable of learning. Idiot - An individual without knowledge and allows social media to do the thinking for them.
seen the opposite, briefly worked with a company that regularly scored outsourced govt jobs, couple of projects I saw happen during my time (I was on neither but saw it coming)... keeping it short: both times the company produced in highly technical terms: a complete and utter POS, everyone knew it. (they got a steaming pile of broiled cat turds garnished with dog vomit... but because no project this 'govt' has initiated has ever failed the respective depts had no choice but to eat it and never stop smiling about it.)
Message Signature (Click to edit ->)
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What I find ironic is that while everybody agrees that a redsesign/rewrite would be a good thing, they don't want to commit to it, and eventually, the software becomes so outdated and im[possible to maintain that it goes "EOL", and everybody blames the programmers for not "taking the initiative to do a rewrite (that management refused to allow in the first place.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 20131.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
everybody agrees
2.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
they don't want to commit to it,
3.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
software becomes so outdated
4.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
everybody blames the programmers
When you put those into a list, it sounds like : A BRAND NEW SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT METHODOLOGY!!!! All we need now...is a CATCHY NAME! How about THe Non-Dev Agreement Cycle!?! Nice acronym too: N-DAC (pronounced in-dack). Perfect!!! :laugh: Everyone (who is important) will love this because it consists of a Software Dev Blame Cycle. Write it up and get rich. All you need now is a self-important book on the topic. :rolleyes:
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I took some screen shots of the current app for layout reference and menu contents, but that's all. My new version has four user-selectable "themes" (selection is stored in the database): 0) Dark with some layout changes 1) Steel/slate blue with the same layout changes (the Air Force likes blue stuff) 2) Lite using the same colors as the original layout, but with same element layout changes as in the dark theme 3) The original layout with no changes - looks almost identical to the original site (has some spacing differences associated with using bootstrap/telerik that I'm going to try to resolve). This only required a couple of different partial views. The layout changes mentioned above include relocation of some of the elements to reclaim vertical screen space, and remove unnecessary text from the screen during normal use. The site will also be mobile aware, but since our minimum width is 1024px (because iPad, and we won't be supporting phone screen sizes), I'm not sure if that's a real selling point. I also have a second project that combines all of the apps in the suite into a single app, and uses areas for segregation of app-specific concerns. This will reduce the overall footprint on the server (because there will be only one copy of things like the Telerik library), and should make deployment easier besides. It also has the same theming stuff in it. I'm pretty close to giving a demonstration, but now I don't know if it's even going to be worth my time. And that's a cryin' f*ckin' shame. The contract does not specify the stack we use. Yes, I'm the lead, and I was told I could redesign it if I felt the need. I feel the need. The main problem is that I feel like the rest of the apps have to come along for the ride, if for no other reason than to have everything look/act the same. THAT is the part that's going to be the hard sell.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The layout changes mentioned above include relocation of some of the elements to reclaim vertical screen space, and remove unnecessary text from the screen during normal use. The site will also be mobile aware, but since our minimum width is 1024px (because iPad, and we won't be supporting phone screen sizes), I'm not sure if that's a real selling point.
I feel your pain. Have had to leave screens in terrible shape because one of the users refused to move out of 800x600 mode. Once he retired we were able to reorganize the layout and accommodate modern screen resolutions. It was an Army project too. We had to keep the field order the same because the operators were keyboard wizards and had the tabbing memorized.
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I've been trying for three months to get my new co-workers excited about doing new development in the form of a rewrite of our web app suite (currently ASP.Net with jquery) to ASP.NET MVC5. All I've gotten in return is the equivalent of, "Great! But it will be a lot of work, so lets not". Yesterday, I mentioned to the PM that I was working on a rewrite at home because we don't have the time/desire to do it at work, and you'd think I was trying to hack the freakin Pentagon. I'm so tired of government contract work... There is no motivation to excel, and initiative is stomped out before it gains a foothold in peiople's minds.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013If it works why fix whats not broken, you could maybe change the front end a bit and add some bootstrap...and freshen it and claim that it was lot of work rather than go and fix all the plumbing and discovery all the leaks !!!!
Caveat Emptor. "Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
